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3.000 brut = 1.728 net
snba pilot troubles ???
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Dear Denim Air,
1. I'm not complaining at all, Dolfke spoke about flying times at SNBA and compared with Thomas Cook. As I fly for Thomas Cook I wanted to add some correct figures to the discussion.
2. When I said between 70 and 90 hours I ment Flying time. In summer it happens we fly 110 hours or like last year 118 hours in august (limit is 110 hours in 30 days) so if you have a month of 31 days.........
3. Don't compare this to intercontinental flights. I checked in my log book: my last flight 10h57min flying time. (3 landings).
I hope this is honest enough for you
1. I'm not complaining at all, Dolfke spoke about flying times at SNBA and compared with Thomas Cook. As I fly for Thomas Cook I wanted to add some correct figures to the discussion.
2. When I said between 70 and 90 hours I ment Flying time. In summer it happens we fly 110 hours or like last year 118 hours in august (limit is 110 hours in 30 days) so if you have a month of 31 days.........
3. Don't compare this to intercontinental flights. I checked in my log book: my last flight 10h57min flying time. (3 landings).
I hope this is honest enough for you
-
tolipanebas
- Posts: 2442
- Joined: 12 May 2004, 00:00
Ok, I've registered specially for this occasion and I do not intend to get tangled up in this discussion, but as a SNBA pilot I feel I just had to jump in here.
Doflke, can you please stop this discussion right away? What were you thinking? This discussion has achieved exactly the opposit of what you and I want! Instead of gaining some sympathy, you are loosing credit.. and the management is all too pleased about it! Just have a look at the latest press release of SN (450 young pilots want to join Sn which has 7 open vacancies! Do you think this press release happened by accident? THey are playing a game to win public oppinion, so make sure you are aware of that before you post on this forum!
Anyway, the reasons for the emerging confusion of tongues are:
-) You use way too much company phraseology like flat rate, nightstop, blocktime, etc etc... People just don't know what that is, my friend! Mind you, not even all pilots know that as different wording is often used in different companies: monthly treshhold, layover, sticktime etc are all much more commonly used.
-) You throw in numbers which again people won't understand:
for instance: you say we fly 65hrs a month or so, thus giving the impression we work less then 20hrs a week! In stead of gaining support there, you loose it and give more weight for the management's point of view: Hey can't they do a few more hours to save the company? (like somebody already asked here!)
-) You give correct figures on salary, but as you have seen, some people simply do not believe you or question your calculation. They simply assume there must be more in it somewhere... Also the idea of dividing your salary by total time-away-from-base, resulting in that 7€/hr figure gave the wrong impression we get paid 7€/hrs as allowance on nightstops!!!!
-) You do your best trying ot explain the situation, yet use incorrect wording, resulting in misinterpretations and misunderstanding. I for one, can understand what you are saying because I know the background from which you are writing, but a neutral observer doesn't.
-) Also, don't forget that to some people, being a pilot I a dream come true; they would do it for free if offered the chance (not realistic, but hey, I know how I felt 5 years ago!), so anybody whining over too much flying, not enough pay or too much time away is one of those spoiled flying boys who's place he'd be happy to take at half of the cost!
For all there reasons, I'd like you to just stop trying to convince people we have it right when saying our management is more than just a bit too eager in squeezing the lemon till the last drop!
Let me end by giving this resume of our labour conditions:
SN Brussels Airlines emerged from DAT, a subsidiary of Sabena.
As was the case with all regional subsidiaries, pay and working conditions at the regional were way below those of the mainline airline. The figures quoted by Dolfke are correct: pay was about 35% less at DAT than at Sabena and we had to fly around 20% more than those guys at the mainline. But nodody complained, we knew this when we started, the pay ws decent and it was not for ever: we would one day fly for Sabena.
Then, after the bankruptcy of Sabena, DAT was taken over but our pay/work conditions were changed overnight and without any prior notice by our management on a take-it-or-leave-it base! Pay was cut by a further 30% and our duty/rest times were set according to the legal minima.
In an effort to reduce labour cost to the absolute minimum, we also lost all other kind of extra's which are very common in aviation:
-) a hospitalisation insurance
-) a loss of licence (a pilot may one day be revoced the right to fly because of a small medical problem, for which an insurence is normally provided to avoid us becomming homeless)
-) retirement savings plan (contrary to people working in other jobs, a pilot has to stop flying at the age of 60 at the latest in Europe, which is much earlier than other people, so he has to bridge that gap)
-) more complex things which are normal thingt ot have in europe like end of year bonus, supplimental pay for holidays etc... etc..
This indeed results to a situation where junior First officers get payed 3,000euro/month, which in Belgium means a mere 1,680euro net. Deduct from this a loan and some costs like personnel insurances (who would like to fly without?) and you'll end up with around: 850euro a month!
Nice basic salary, hey?
Now, we get allowances you say?
Yes we do, but not like Denimair thought 7€/hr...
we only get peanuts really: the exact amount depends on what kind of stopover we have of course, but do you think it is possible to have a meal at noon and a dinner in the evening from a 24 euro allowance when you are on a daystop Turin from 9AM (time you land) till 7PM or so (time you leave again)?
In all, allowances are fully used, and when you are unlucky in your scheduling, they will not even be sufficient and you will have to use your basic salary to pay for your expenses at outstation... that's right: from that 850/month that is!
Oh, but when you are payed so few, surely, you don't work hard?
As Dolfke said: our flatrate (monthly treshhold or 'planning target for the cres scheduling department') is 75hrs. They may not exceed this (unless for special unforseen reasons) so on average we do somewhere in between 65 and 70 hrs. Mind you: this is 65 to 70hrs in the cockpit with engines running! Everybody who has flown short-to-medium haul (even as a pax) will know you loose a lot more time on the ground than in the air nowadays... so when dolfke said you have to multiply these 65 hours by around 3 to get a good idea of the time you are performing a duty, that is fully correct. 65 X 3 = 195hrs/month or 48hrs/week! (and mind you, I use conservative figures; I could have used 70 iso 65 and 3,5 iso 3,0 for instance.... but I don't want to feel to depressed or get accused of twisting facts)
Anyway, anyone of you have a working week of 48 hrs at the office? for €850/month?
On top of that we are faced with some other things, which are inherent to our profession, but for which no compensation, let alone remuneration is forseen like is normally the case.
-) we have regular simulator check (20hrs/year, thus around 2 hours per month) which are not deducted from our threshold: they are for free
-) we do a lot of home study to prepare these simulators, as well as to prepare us for newly introduced company procedures, which means we do all this in our free time.
-) our airline has very fucked up schedules, which means we often spend out free time in Turin, or in Bologna, or somewhere in Scandinavia in stead of at home.
I have heard Mr. Davignon say SN Brussels Airlines has the cheapest labour cost of any airline in the BeNeLux! Do you think it is normal we undercut all those small Dutch airlines for instance?
I hope I have opened some people's eyes...
Thank you.
Doflke, can you please stop this discussion right away? What were you thinking? This discussion has achieved exactly the opposit of what you and I want! Instead of gaining some sympathy, you are loosing credit.. and the management is all too pleased about it! Just have a look at the latest press release of SN (450 young pilots want to join Sn which has 7 open vacancies! Do you think this press release happened by accident? THey are playing a game to win public oppinion, so make sure you are aware of that before you post on this forum!
Anyway, the reasons for the emerging confusion of tongues are:
-) You use way too much company phraseology like flat rate, nightstop, blocktime, etc etc... People just don't know what that is, my friend! Mind you, not even all pilots know that as different wording is often used in different companies: monthly treshhold, layover, sticktime etc are all much more commonly used.
-) You throw in numbers which again people won't understand:
for instance: you say we fly 65hrs a month or so, thus giving the impression we work less then 20hrs a week! In stead of gaining support there, you loose it and give more weight for the management's point of view: Hey can't they do a few more hours to save the company? (like somebody already asked here!)
-) You give correct figures on salary, but as you have seen, some people simply do not believe you or question your calculation. They simply assume there must be more in it somewhere... Also the idea of dividing your salary by total time-away-from-base, resulting in that 7€/hr figure gave the wrong impression we get paid 7€/hrs as allowance on nightstops!!!!
-) You do your best trying ot explain the situation, yet use incorrect wording, resulting in misinterpretations and misunderstanding. I for one, can understand what you are saying because I know the background from which you are writing, but a neutral observer doesn't.
-) Also, don't forget that to some people, being a pilot I a dream come true; they would do it for free if offered the chance (not realistic, but hey, I know how I felt 5 years ago!), so anybody whining over too much flying, not enough pay or too much time away is one of those spoiled flying boys who's place he'd be happy to take at half of the cost!
For all there reasons, I'd like you to just stop trying to convince people we have it right when saying our management is more than just a bit too eager in squeezing the lemon till the last drop!
Let me end by giving this resume of our labour conditions:
SN Brussels Airlines emerged from DAT, a subsidiary of Sabena.
As was the case with all regional subsidiaries, pay and working conditions at the regional were way below those of the mainline airline. The figures quoted by Dolfke are correct: pay was about 35% less at DAT than at Sabena and we had to fly around 20% more than those guys at the mainline. But nodody complained, we knew this when we started, the pay ws decent and it was not for ever: we would one day fly for Sabena.
Then, after the bankruptcy of Sabena, DAT was taken over but our pay/work conditions were changed overnight and without any prior notice by our management on a take-it-or-leave-it base! Pay was cut by a further 30% and our duty/rest times were set according to the legal minima.
In an effort to reduce labour cost to the absolute minimum, we also lost all other kind of extra's which are very common in aviation:
-) a hospitalisation insurance
-) a loss of licence (a pilot may one day be revoced the right to fly because of a small medical problem, for which an insurence is normally provided to avoid us becomming homeless)
-) retirement savings plan (contrary to people working in other jobs, a pilot has to stop flying at the age of 60 at the latest in Europe, which is much earlier than other people, so he has to bridge that gap)
-) more complex things which are normal thingt ot have in europe like end of year bonus, supplimental pay for holidays etc... etc..
This indeed results to a situation where junior First officers get payed 3,000euro/month, which in Belgium means a mere 1,680euro net. Deduct from this a loan and some costs like personnel insurances (who would like to fly without?) and you'll end up with around: 850euro a month!
Nice basic salary, hey?
Now, we get allowances you say?
Yes we do, but not like Denimair thought 7€/hr...
we only get peanuts really: the exact amount depends on what kind of stopover we have of course, but do you think it is possible to have a meal at noon and a dinner in the evening from a 24 euro allowance when you are on a daystop Turin from 9AM (time you land) till 7PM or so (time you leave again)?
In all, allowances are fully used, and when you are unlucky in your scheduling, they will not even be sufficient and you will have to use your basic salary to pay for your expenses at outstation... that's right: from that 850/month that is!
Oh, but when you are payed so few, surely, you don't work hard?
As Dolfke said: our flatrate (monthly treshhold or 'planning target for the cres scheduling department') is 75hrs. They may not exceed this (unless for special unforseen reasons) so on average we do somewhere in between 65 and 70 hrs. Mind you: this is 65 to 70hrs in the cockpit with engines running! Everybody who has flown short-to-medium haul (even as a pax) will know you loose a lot more time on the ground than in the air nowadays... so when dolfke said you have to multiply these 65 hours by around 3 to get a good idea of the time you are performing a duty, that is fully correct. 65 X 3 = 195hrs/month or 48hrs/week! (and mind you, I use conservative figures; I could have used 70 iso 65 and 3,5 iso 3,0 for instance.... but I don't want to feel to depressed or get accused of twisting facts)
Anyway, anyone of you have a working week of 48 hrs at the office? for €850/month?
On top of that we are faced with some other things, which are inherent to our profession, but for which no compensation, let alone remuneration is forseen like is normally the case.
-) we have regular simulator check (20hrs/year, thus around 2 hours per month) which are not deducted from our threshold: they are for free
-) we do a lot of home study to prepare these simulators, as well as to prepare us for newly introduced company procedures, which means we do all this in our free time.
-) our airline has very fucked up schedules, which means we often spend out free time in Turin, or in Bologna, or somewhere in Scandinavia in stead of at home.
I have heard Mr. Davignon say SN Brussels Airlines has the cheapest labour cost of any airline in the BeNeLux! Do you think it is normal we undercut all those small Dutch airlines for instance?
I hope I have opened some people's eyes...
Thank you.
Last edited by tolipanebas on 12 May 2004, 13:36, edited 2 times in total.
Thanks for all the details tolipanebas (and welcome to luchtzak 
)
It's much more clearer now, but I still have a remark.
As far as I know the netto income is different for everybody, since it depends on the personal situation of the person (married, single, ......)
That's why I think it would be more logical, to only talk with bruto figures, instead of the netto ones.
Greetz
Chris
)It's much more clearer now, but I still have a remark.
As far as I know the netto income is different for everybody, since it depends on the personal situation of the person (married, single, ......)
That's why I think it would be more logical, to only talk with bruto figures, instead of the netto ones.
Greetz
Chris
Last edited by Avro on 12 May 2004, 13:38, edited 1 time in total.
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tolipanebas
- Posts: 2442
- Joined: 12 May 2004, 00:00
indeed Avro,
net income is depending on your matrimonial status, and I am thus in favour of using gross salary in discussions too! Anyway, Dolfke gave you the figure of aroud 1680 euro net to give you an idea what a new-entry airline pilot an SN will earn...
Fuji-Monster came up with a somewhat higher figure: 1730 or so, but mind you, under Belgian law, flying staf is paying some more extra taxes thanks to a sepcial royal decree to allow us to retire earlier...
Hence the difference between the figures the site gave Fuji-Monster
and reality...
net income is depending on your matrimonial status, and I am thus in favour of using gross salary in discussions too! Anyway, Dolfke gave you the figure of aroud 1680 euro net to give you an idea what a new-entry airline pilot an SN will earn...
Fuji-Monster came up with a somewhat higher figure: 1730 or so, but mind you, under Belgian law, flying staf is paying some more extra taxes thanks to a sepcial royal decree to allow us to retire earlier...
Hence the difference between the figures the site gave Fuji-Monster
and reality...
Hey tolipanebas, thanks for the help (who are you by the way?):lol:
As said earlier my reason for posting was to give the facts as clear and honest as I know them.
So if I pissed someone off, please accept my apologies.
ANd for those being disgusted about something us pilots say please tell us or ask the question calmly so we can try to respond with the best available information.
Have a nice day you all.
Dolf
As said earlier my reason for posting was to give the facts as clear and honest as I know them.
So if I pissed someone off, please accept my apologies.
ANd for those being disgusted about something us pilots say please tell us or ask the question calmly so we can try to respond with the best available information.
Have a nice day you all.
Dolf
-
tolipanebas
- Posts: 2442
- Joined: 12 May 2004, 00:00
Voila! Verry well said 1V1!
That's why I asked dolfke to stop this discussion right away!
As you say, we simply can not sell our story to the public:
to them pilots are suntaned spoiled boys going on wellpaid holidays with a bunch of sexy stewardesses, getting paid a salary of around 3K to 4K net and being pampered all of the time by their employer.
And our employer is all too keen on keeping this image alive (hence the recent press release) just to make sure our side of the story, even if it is heared, is not believed....
That's why I asked dolfke to stop this discussion right away!
As you say, we simply can not sell our story to the public:
to them pilots are suntaned spoiled boys going on wellpaid holidays with a bunch of sexy stewardesses, getting paid a salary of around 3K to 4K net and being pampered all of the time by their employer.
And our employer is all too keen on keeping this image alive (hence the recent press release) just to make sure our side of the story, even if it is heared, is not believed....
Dolfke,
What you are doing is not wise.
If you have anything to say post it on the private forum.
There are some people within SN who do not appreciate the fact that the details of their contract are thrown in public, ie salaries...
What you are doing doesn't help the company we love...
Please stop submitting about this ,
Thanks, a collegue,
What you are doing is not wise.
If you have anything to say post it on the private forum.
There are some people within SN who do not appreciate the fact that the details of their contract are thrown in public, ie salaries...
What you are doing doesn't help the company we love...
Please stop submitting about this ,
Thanks, a collegue,
Last edited by fly on 23 May 2004, 06:21, edited 2 times in total.
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Sabena_690
- Posts: 3378
- Joined: 20 Sep 2002, 00:00
Actually, you don't have to be much of an insider to know that this is a crappy statement.As you say, we simply can not sell our story to the public:
to them pilots are suntaned spoiled boys going on wellpaid holidays with a bunch of sexy stewardesses, getting paid a salary of around 3K to 4K net and being pampered all of the time by their employer.
I'm no pilot myself, only a student and an aviation enthusiastic, yet I haven't heard the image of pilots you describe over here in my environment.
Frederic
My friend,
the statement you say is crapy, well we are confronted with it every day (well I am anyway)
People automaticly think you earn loads of money, well I also have to pay bills , and believe me .... while other people are buying a house and a nice car etc, I am paying my debt for the ATPL I did .
But to be honest it was well worth it , its the best job in the world and I love it
the statement you say is crapy, well we are confronted with it every day (well I am anyway)
People automaticly think you earn loads of money, well I also have to pay bills , and believe me .... while other people are buying a house and a nice car etc, I am paying my debt for the ATPL I did .
But to be honest it was well worth it , its the best job in the world and I love it
-
Sabena_690
- Posts: 3378
- Joined: 20 Sep 2002, 00:00
Fly: all who claims that pilots almost live in a paradise have no clue what they are talking about.
Anybody who thinks that especially the younger pilots who have to pay a very expensive training etc etc are earning a lot of money these days need a reality check I'm afraid.
And a lot of young pilots who haven't gotten a job yet are very desperate at the moment... I only have to look at a good friend of mine who got all the necessary trainings but no type-rating for B737-A320 for example. After two years of full-time writing cv's etc, he still has no job.
It's a very hard time for a lot of pilots...
Frederic
Anybody who thinks that especially the younger pilots who have to pay a very expensive training etc etc are earning a lot of money these days need a reality check I'm afraid.
And a lot of young pilots who haven't gotten a job yet are very desperate at the moment... I only have to look at a good friend of mine who got all the necessary trainings but no type-rating for B737-A320 for example. After two years of full-time writing cv's etc, he still has no job.
It's a very hard time for a lot of pilots...
Frederic
VLM have better in flight service as well 
@ Fly,What you are doing is very dangerous, I suggest you stop this discussion and read your contract in detail....
If you have anything to say post it on the private forum.
I partially agree with you, but I just want to remind you that the story was first published by La libre Belgique (https://www.aviation24.be/article4329.html ). It's only due to this publication that Dolfke made his comments.
Chris
I know that its a reaction to the publication, doesn't matter he shouldn't give comments or reactions on contracts.
By the way, SNBA employees ( all of them ) are working very hard to make this company succeed, and be the best in europe.
I hope we are doing a good job and it would be wrong to destroy all this work because of this!
Hope more of you guys and galls will enjoy the SNBA experience in the near future.
Best regards
By the way, SNBA employees ( all of them ) are working very hard to make this company succeed, and be the best in europe.
I hope we are doing a good job and it would be wrong to destroy all this work because of this!
Hope more of you guys and galls will enjoy the SNBA experience in the near future.
Best regards
Last edited by fly on 22 May 2004, 21:30, edited 1 time in total.
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Fuji-Monster
- Posts: 174
- Joined: 16 Oct 2002, 00:00
- Location: Brussel
@ tolipanebas & dolfke:
How do you calculate the multiplication factor between "duty" and "flighthours" ?
How do i have to understand this factor ?
How do you calculate the multiplication factor between "duty" and "flighthours" ?
How do i have to understand this factor ?
Last edited by Fuji-Monster on 09 Feb 2005, 18:51, edited 1 time in total.
Be very carefully when you state some salaries, nevermind whether it's your gross or net salary. In these times, with the unemploimentfigures that high. One way or another this always talks in favor of the managment. When they talk about salaries to the general public, they won't mention the workload and the responsibility and this is applicable to pilots, as well as cabin crew, maintenance, operations, ...
Don't forget that without the close co-operation of all those departments there would be hell to pay in the world of aviation. A little more appreciation from the management to all those people from the management would be a nice change.
regards
Falcon7X
Don't forget that without the close co-operation of all those departments there would be hell to pay in the world of aviation. A little more appreciation from the management to all those people from the management would be a nice change.
regards
Falcon7X
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Comet
- Posts: 6481
- Joined: 05 Jul 2003, 00:00
- Location: Scarborough, North Yorkshire, England
- Contact:
Those of us who have paid out hell of alot of money to fly SNBA this year hope you are right Fly.fly wrote:
Anyway I don't think anybody at SNBA will strike, there might be some differences and problems but solutions will be found !!! I am sure
Hope more of you guys and galls will enjoy the SNBA experience in the near future.
Best regards
I would not be pleased if I got to MAN in September only to find my flight cancelled (and therefore my expensive holiday also) because of a :censored: strike! Insurance does not cover loss of plans due to strike action, and SNBA would lose alot of sympathy if passengers were :censored: about in that way, believe me!!
SN is not the only carrier flying to Belgium, many people would be only too ready to fly another carrier if they did not know where they were with SN. I really hope there is no problem because many want your airline to succeed, but it cannot do that if it is going to have such a cavalier :censored: attitude towards those who provide revenue for it!
Sabena and Sobelair - gone but never forgotten.
Louise
Louise