Malév ordered to repay state aid, now bankrupt

[Air Key West]

I'm always sad tho see an airline disappear, also because so many airline crew and employees will loose their jobs and secondarily, part of the aviation history of a country will disappear. Any mismanaged company (aviation sector or other) will eventually disappear.

it would have been great to have an early departure from BUD as well, although a nightstop service is much harder to implement short notice of course.

I fully agree. If flight crew are available, I assume there should not be any major problem to arrange something quickly, even before the summer season. Korongo planes are still waiting to fly, no ?

[RoMax]

Bad times for Oneworld, Mexicana in 2010, today Malév and Oneworld announced that the entry of Kingfisher (planned for 10 February) is delayed because they need more time to resolve their financial problems...

Anyway good SN reacted so fast. I assume most airlines already had a scenario ready for the time Malév would collapse. When I last checked flights to BUD it was already the case that SN had loaded A319 and 737's for the new summer season in the shedule to BUD, so that was already planned and not something new from today. But the new flight is nice of course.
Malév had two daily flights with a mix of 736, 737 and sometimes 738. So one extra daily flight for SN is not overoptimistic I suppose (altough also Wizzair increases its flights to CRL).

Sad to see this airline disappear...always loved to see them flying. Also sad for the 2 600 people that worked for the airline... Thousands of jobs lost in European aviation in just one week time...

[tolipanebas]

it would have been great to have an early departure from BUD as well, although a nightstop service is much harder to implement short notice of course.

I fully agree. If flight crew are available, I assume there should not be any major problem to arrange something quickly, even before the summer season. Korongo planes are still waiting to fly, no ?

Introducing a nightstop service would mean SN has to reshuffle its entire time table on BUD to still offer a good spread of flights throughout the day, something which can't be done in a couple of hours (and would cause too many rebookings) so they seem to have opted for the easiest option which to add a single return flight in between the 2 existing ones. It is the same at other airlines which have announced schedule improvements too, BTW.

I'd expect a completely overhauled schedule (possibly including a nightstop) for this summer as I am pretty sure those airlines that can offer an early morning departure to be particularly laughing all the way to the bank now.

[crew1990]

Just to le you know that Ryanair will opend a base there from the 17th february, and Charleroi will be one of the destination...

[liebensd]

Next week I am flying to BUD with Brussels Airline (Luckily booked SN). There is a 733 and a Avro 85 scheduled. Will SN upgrade these flights to a bigger aircraft next week, to have additional capacity before they start 3th daily?

Regards,

Dave

[Air Key West]

Introducing a nightstop service would mean SN has to reshuffle its entire time table on BUD to still offer a good spread of flights throughout the day

Hi ! Tolipanebas, I don't understand why SN would have to reshuffle its entire timetable to BUD because of night stop.
If they had (for instance, a Korongo) plane leaving BRU at 2000 hours and flying back from BUD at 0630 hours, the only problem which comes to my mind is the flight crew rotation. Of course, as you rightly point out, this can't be done in a few hours, but certainly sooner than the beginning of the summer season. If I'm missing something, I'll be happy for you to shed some light on this for me ( or us).

The sooner an airline will occupy the void left by Malev, the more it will get out of it. I would not be surprised if other airlines rearrange their schedules before the start of the summer season.

[liebensd]

At this moment 13 planes of Malev are heading to Shannon:

HA-LOF as MA5350
HA-LOC as MA5236
HA-LON as MA5412
HA-LOJ as MA5400
HA-LOD as MA5324
HA-LOH as MA5224
HA-LOU as MA5212
HA-LOK as MA5200
HA-LOR as MA5336
HA-LOL as MA5250
HA-LOS as MA5300
HA-LOG as MA5376
HA-LOE as MA5348

Regards,
Dave

[Charlie Roy]

Regarding the point that Brussels Airlines should now nightstop at Budapest, I completely agree. Just to mention though that Wizzair announced today that they will increase BUD-CRL from daily to double daily, the extra flight being very early morning. So for the moment Wizz can enjoy this advantage.

However an early morning BUD-BRU is far more interesting for business travellers and would also nicely feed Brussel's Star Alliance hub.

Interesting how Malev's demise will result in more capacity between Belgium and Hungary, based on today's announcements from Brussels Airlines, Wizzair and Ryanair.

The chances of some sort of ressurrected Malev as a new Hungarian national carrier is non-existant; Ryanair and Wizz have ensured that.

[tolipanebas]

Hi ! Tolipanebas, I don't understand why SN would have to reshuffle its entire timetable to BUD because of night stop.
If they had a plane leaving BRU at 2000 hours and flying back from BUD at 0630 hours, the only problem which comes to my mind is the flight crew rotation.

Indeed, such a schedule is not possible to implement for the simple reason it would give the crew far less than 7 hours of rest, way below the legally required rest period of a minimum of 8 hours at the hotel.

In order to give the crew the minimum legal rest in BUD and still allow a 0630 return flight to BRU in the morning, the additional evening flight to BUD should leave BRU almost at the same time as the current evening flight: I don't think it is a particularly brilliant schedule to have 3 flights a day, 2 of which within an hour apart late in the evening, hence me saying that if SN wants to implement a nightstop service to BUD, they'll need to rework their entire schedule on BUD, effectively bringing their current evening return service forward by a couple of hours as well as push their current morning departure to BUD to a later hour too in order to spread flights throughout the day and offer decent connectivity in both directions.

Anyway, the phenomenon often seen after the demise of an airline is reproducing itself once again, not just on the routes between Belgium and Hungary, BTW: it seems that on many of the routes MA operated on, there will soon be more even capacity offered than when they were still around and Belgium is no exception to this.

[Air Key West]

I never expected a crew that arrive around 2200 hours to do the 0630 hours flight the next morning. That would be illegal and inhuman.
I see it differently :
crew 1 performing the BRU BUD 1345 - 1555 flight would stay in BUD and perform the 0630 - 0840 flight the next morning ;
crew 2 performing the (new) BRU BUD flight (let's say 2000 - 2210 hours) would also have a lay-over, of course, and would take over from crew 1 arriving at 1555 hours (and staying in BUD), and crew 2 would fly back to BRU on the 1625 - 1835 flight.
Doesn't seem impossible (even not very difficult) to arrange. Organize the crew rotation, find a hotel, arrange transfers for the crew, etc...
Isn't something similar being done on the MAD route with the crew arriving in MAD at 2245 hours not performing the 0640 flight the next morning ?

[tolipanebas]

I never expected a crew that arrive around 2200 hours to do the 0630 hours flight the next morning. That would be illegal and inhuman.

I see it differently :
crew 1 performing the BRU BUD 1345 - 1555 flight would stay in BUD and perform the 0630 - 0840 flight the next morning ;
crew 2 performing the (new) BRU BUD flight (let's say 2000 - 2210 hours) would also have a lay-over, of course, and would take over from crew 1 arriving at 1555 hours (and staying in BUD), and crew 2 would fly back to BRU on the 1625 - 1835 flight.
Doesn't seem impossible (even not very difficult) to arrange. Organize the crew rotation, find a hotel, arrange transfers for the crew, etc...
Isn't something similar being done on the MAD route with the crew arriving in MAD at 2245 hours not performing the 0640 flight the next morning ?

Yes indeed, but please note you are actually also re-arranging the schedule, as there is no 1345-ish flight right now, which is what I have been saying all along: a nightstop service comes with a complete schedule change, something which you can't do in just a couple of weeks: I don't think pax will particularly like you changing their flights, you know, especially not those with connection flights and/or meetings planned.

[Air Key West]

Sorry to disagree. The 1345 departure ex BRU is not my invention, nor is it part of a re-arrangement of the schedule. The 1345 departure is on b.air's web site for 05 MAR (and on, I think) with the current two flights operating without flight schedule changes. So, there is no re-arrangement of the schedules. B.Air is just adding that 1345 departure.

[tolipanebas]

Sorry to disagree. The 1345 departure ex BRU is not my invention, nor is it part of a re-arrangement of the schedule. The 1345 departure is on b.air's web site for 05 MAR (and on, I think) with the current two flights operating without flight schedule changes. So, there is no re-arrangement of the schedules. B.Air is just adding that 1345 departure.

Yes I understand and you can indeed use that one to positin a CREW, but then explain me where the PLANE is going to come from to operate a 0630 morning flight from BUD?

You'd have to cancel the late evening return flight from BUD for that, and that is something which can't be done overnight, given this flight has been on sale already and you can't reallistically suddenly ask your customers to stay an extra night in Budapest, can you?

As you've come to see for yourself, there is no way you can implement a nightstop service on BUD without making changes to the 2 exisiting flights too as you somehow have to get both crew and plane in BUD for the early departure, and I agree that is not the aim now, as customers really don't like it when you change their travel ittinary so drastically and so near their departure date, hence SN simply opting for an additional noon flight, which doesn't have an impact on the 2 other flights.

Besides, a point which you haven't taken into account, but when you implement a split crew concept like you propose, it obviously requires SN to use the same type of plane on all flights involved in the nightstop, something which isn't the case either (its going to be a mixure of RJ for noon service and A319/737 for morning/evening service), hence it being far more complicated than just booking a hotel and a crew transport.

[secondlife]

Big fight for the Hungarian market ... FR (Ryanair) is starting operations and will heavily compete W6 (Wizzair)

Ryanair pressrelease: ( http://www.ryanair.com/en/news/ryanair- ... fWs.mailto)

News Release


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

03.02.12

Ryanair to Open Budapest Base in Two Weeks With 31 New Routes, 2M PAX P.A., SAVING UP TO 2,000 JOBS FOLLOWING MALEV’S CLOSURE RYANAIR FARES START FROM €9.99/HUF2,000 FROM 17 FEBRUARY

RYANAIR MEETING WITH HUNGARIAN GOVERNMENT AND
BUDAPEST AIRPORT TODAY TO FINALISE RESCUE PLAN

Ryanair, the world’s favourite airline today (3rd Feb) at a press conference in Budapest announced its intention to launch a rescue plan for Budapest and Hungarian tourism following the grounding of Malev airline last evening. Ryanair confirmed that it will base 4 brand new Boeing 737-800 series aircraft at Budapest Airport commencing in just two weeks time on Friday 17th February where it will open 31 new routes, offering lower fares (€9.99/HUF2,999) than any other airline, and delivering up to 2m passengers p.a., replacing most of the traffic and routes lost by Budapest following last night’s grounding of Malev.

Ryanair, which currently employs over 700 Hungarian pilots and cabin crew, will be holding an open recruitment day in Budapest on Tuesday next (7th Feb), inviting job applications from Malev pilots, cabin crew and engineers to help Ryanair gear up for this 4 aircraft, 2m passenger p.a. base at Budapest Airport. The International Airport Council figures confirm that this 2m pax p.a. will support 2,000 jobs at Budapest Airport.

This largest ever investment in Hungarian aviation and tourism is subject to reaching final agreement with Budapest Airport today on costs, facilities and handling, and Ryanair’s Deputy CEO Michael Cawley has travelled to Budapest to finalise these negotiations with Budapest Airport and the Hungarian Government. Because Ryanair has grounded up to 80 aircraft this winter, it has the capacity to respond immediately to the Malev grounding by moving aircraft, pilots and crews to Budapest within two weeks, in order to minimise the disruption to Hungarian consumers/visitors and tourism as a result of the Malev closure.

Ryanair’s new Budapest base will start on Friday 17th February at fares from €9.99/HUF2,999 and these 31 new routes go on sale at these HUF2,999/€9.99 fares on http://www.ryanair.com/hu
today.

Ryanair’s 31 new routes to/from Budapest from 17 Feb



Routes Starts From € Routes Starts From €
Alicante APR 49.99 Manchester FEB 9.99
Baden Baden FEB 9.99 Munich West FEB 9.99
Barcelona FEB 9.99 Milan (BGY) FEB 9.99
Birmingham MAR 29.99 Warsaw (Modlin) JUL 29.99
Bologna MAR 9.99 Oslo FEB 9.99
Bristol MAR 29.99 Palma APR 49.99
Brussels (CRL) FEB 9.99 Paphos APR 49.99
Chania APR 49.99 Paris FEB 9.99
Dublin FEB 9.99 Pisa APR 49.99
Eindhoven APR 29.99 Rhodes APR 49.99
Gottenburg FEB 9.99 Rome (CIA) FEB 9.99
Hamburg (LBC) FEB 9.99 Stockholm (NYO) FEB 9.99
Krakow FEB 9.99 Thessaloniki FEB 9.99
London (STN) FEB 9.99 Trapani APR 49.99
Madrid FEB 9.99 Venice( TSF) APR 29.99
Malaga APR 49.99

[tolipanebas]

The above is a double post... please delete

I'd like to read about FREQUENCIES from FR, rather than their PR talk about them rescuing BUD, Hungarian tourism and the world even with just 4 planes....
Can they just cut their usual grandtalk and stick to the facts for once?
Like in: "We're going to serve these destinations with this frequency", similar to how Wizzair communicates: viewtopic.php?f=31&t=46675

Seems to me FR was caught way off guard by the sudden MA bankruptcy and now has to improvise at full speed, before the market it completely taken over by the likes of Wizzair and many others acting from an established and profitable platform. I am sure MOL had hoped MA would be around for much longer, because it is far easier for him to fight against a very weak local placeholder like MA, than it is to fight against Wizzair, Germanwings, Air Berlin and a bunch of network carriers from allover the place really.

[Air Key West]

Yes I understand and you can indeed use that one to positin a CREW, but then explain me where the PLANE is going to come from to operate a 0630 morning flight from BUD?

You'd have to cancel the late evening return flight from BUD for that, and that is something which can't be done overnight, given this flight has been on sale already and you can't reallistically suddenly ask your customers to stay an extra night in Budapest, can you?

My answer (on 3 February already) :

If they had (for instance, a Korongo) plane leaving BRU at 2000 hours and flying back from BUD at 0630 hours

You've got a point when you say :

when you implement a split crew concept like you propose, it obviously requires SN to use the same type of plane on all flights involved in the nightstop

I presume the Korongo aircraft are still around. One of these aircraft could perhaps do both following (new) flights :
(already loaded in the system)
BRU BUD 1345 1555
BUD BRU 1625 1835
+ entirely new (slots permitting)
BRU BUD 2000 2210 or even 2030 2240
BUD BRU 0630 0840

This way, you would not have to touch the two flights operated since the beginning of the winter season.

I know : easier said than done, but is it really that difficult, or even impossible ? In today's economic environment, you have to be reactive and proactive and try to be ahead of the competition. But that's maybe to much to ask from b.air....

[tolipanebas]

Yes I understand and you can indeed use that one to position a CREW, but then explain me where the PLANE is going to come from to operate a 0630 morning flight from BUD?

My answer (on 3 February already) :

If they had (for instance, a Korongo) plane leaving BRU at 2000 hours and flying back from BUD at 0630 hours

So to make it perfectly clear: you are going to add a noon flight (and use that to postion a crew) and add a late evening flight (to bring the plane in): that is a total of 2 additional flights, not 1.

I presume the Korongo aircraft are still around. One of these aircraft could perhaps do both following (new) flights :
(already loaded in the system)
BRU BUD 1345 1555
BUD BRU 1625 1835
+ entirely new (slots permitting)
BRU BUD 2000 2210 or even 2030 2240
BUD BRU 0630 0840
This way, you would not have to touch the two flights operated since the beginning of the winter season.

So you'd indeed add 2 flights a day just to implement a nightstop service then?

Adding 2 flights and a nightstop service is all very nice, but are you sure you'll be able to fill all that extra capacity on such a short notice, to make it all profitable?

BUD does not warrant 4 daily flights from BRU, especially not given the competition announced at CRL: a potential total of up to 7 daily return flights between Belgium and BUD, doesn't that sounds a bit high to you given the current economic outlook in Hungary???

I agree a nightstop service would be great indeed, but it can be done with 'just' 3 flights on condition they get the time to rework their schedule and then they have the best of both worlds (i.e. just 3 flights and a nightstop): there's no need to dump even more capacity on the route just to achieve the same, IMHO.

The Malev's bankruptcy does offer a unique opportunity to SN to strengthen their commercial position at BUD, but its fairly easy to overplay their hand too and distroy the route's profitability completely.

[airazurxtror]

I'd like to read about FREQUENCIES from FR, rather than their PR talk about them rescuing BUD, Hungarian tourism and the world even with just 4 planes....
Can they just cut their usual grandtalk and stick to the facts for once?
Like in: "We're going to serve these destinations with this frequency",

Brussels Airlines :
- is going to rescue BUD, Hungarian tourism and the world with just ... one more flight.

Ryanair :
- will base 4 brand new Boeing 737-800 series aircraft at Budapest Airport commencing in just two weeks time on Friday 17th February where it will open 31 new routes.
- will be holding an open recruitment day in Budapest on Tuesday next (7th Feb), inviting job applications from Malev pilots, cabin crew and engineers.

Compare ...

PS : if you want to know the frequencies, go on the Ryanair website, the flights are already bookable (or at least some of them, I did not check them all).

[SN1203]

In today's economic environment, you have to be reactive and proactive and try to be ahead of the competition. But that's maybe to much to ask from b.air....

Oooh Air Key West, you just can't stop your unfounded attacks on b.air, can you... It is not a problem that you are totally clueless about the operational restrictions of your "ideal proposals", but can you please stop your constant attacks if you don't know what you're talking about...

Tolipanebas has summed up most operational restrictions you would encounter... think about slip crews (requiring the same type of aircraft on the nightstop + afternoon flight), lack of aircraft capacity, lack of crews etc. Do you think b.air has aircraft sleeping on the ground that can be injected in the flight schedule just overnight? Do you really think a nightstop capacity is available? And you want to use a Korongo aircraft that could be gone in 2-3 months, what would you do afterwards? And have you ever considered that the BAe146 requires a specific typerating that regular Avro pilots don't have? Ever considered the impact on other destinations (slots, schedules,...) that are the result of squeezing in an additional rotation at the last minute? You are very good in explaining in theory how an airline should do its job, while you clearly don't have any practical experience at all. I hope you feel good in your ivory tower...

Brussels Airlines :
- is going to rescue BUD, Hungarian tourism and the world with just ... one more flight.

Ryanair :
- will base 4 brand new Boeing 737-800 series aircraft at Budapest Airport commencing in just two weeks time on Friday 17th February where it will open 31 new routes.
- will be holding an open recruitment day in Budapest on Tuesday next (7th Feb), inviting job applications from Malev pilots, cabin crew and engineers.

Compare ...

You are right, Ryanair is so succesful that they can maybe start paying for ATC, office space etc. etc. and why not start paying back all the subsidies they get to finance their massive growth. Brussels Airlines is already investing for years in its Budapest-Brussels operations with 2 daily flights, and will go to three daily as of mid-February, what else would you actually expect!?

[convair]

I am a SN supporter and I find it sad that SN cannot take better advantage of this new situation at BUD.
For all the good reasons given here on this topic to explain the lack of flexibility of SN, I'd still much prefer to see a more "yes we can" attitude!