Boeing to re-engine the B737

[RoMax]

Now with the order of 460 narrowbody's of AA (Boeing and Airbus) it is official that Boeing will re-engine the B737. Even before the aircraft program is approved by the board of Boeing, they already have their first order for 100 aircraft and 60 options.

We must say this is quite a suprising way of "announcing" a new aircraft project. But that's because Boeing prefered a new design (just as many other customers), but they couldn't get Airbus away with 460 orders for their A320(NEO) as AA couldn't wait for a new design of Boeing. So Boeing was too late to get the full order, and they had to go full power ahaid to get a part of this AA order with their B737RE.

The CFM Leap-X (wich also is one of the NEO's engine choices) will power the AA aircraft. Some sources say the Leap-x will be the only engine choice for the next B737 variants and no P&W like with the NEO. But that's not official.

Boeing is now working on the final configuration of the B737RE and approval by the board of directors before the next B737 versions will be officially launched (at that time the AA order for the 100 B737RE's will be firmed, now it is just a commitment as the program doesn't exist officially yet at this moment). These things are normally done before the first order is announced...this only underlines how fast Boeing had to react on AA to make sure they didn't lost the full order to Airbus.

http://www.flightlevel.be/6253/boeing-a ... -airplanes

[smokejumper]

Boeing's indecision (whether to re-engine or build a new plane) has cost it dearly. Lost orders and lost spare parts business will haunt it for the next 2 decades.

[RoMax]

Indeed, they acted way too slow. Boeing tought their customers would wait for them, but as AA proved, they will not wait forever (DL is also looking at the NEO, same with Southwest...). This is quite a big order (at least when the B737RE orders will be fixed, because now it is a commitment to a programme that not even exists officially), but Boeing can't be happy with it. They can only be relieved that they were just on time to secure at least a part of the order, but that's not a reason to party...

[Bralo20]

I think the big party will be today in Toulouse... (as a figure of speech)

[earthman]

That's a shame, I was hoping for a new design. I'm tired of seeing the same 737s everywhere, both inside and out.

Also I thought the GTF's diameter is too large to fit under a 737 anyway, while the Leap-X's is close enough to the current 737 engines to make this possible. Not that you can get a 737 with non-CFM engines right now anyway, so this is a moot point.

[RoMax]

That's a shame, I was hoping for a new design. I'm tired of seeing the same 737s everywhere, both inside and out.

Yes that's true, but what could Boeing do? Losing a client like AA, possibly Delta and Southwest (who all said they couldn't wait until 2020)?

Boeing now says: the B737RE is in the conceptual phase, approval by the board of directors may come in fall 2011. Boeing will probably officially launch the B737RE between late September and late December.
And Airbus and Boeing are now indicating that they may increase the narrowbody production rate even higher as a result of this deal. Boeing recently decided to upgrade B737 production to 42 a month by 2014 and they recently indicated that up to 60 is possible (maybe they already pointed at the AMR order by indicating such a high production rate). Airbus will be even faster at a rate of about 42 (if I'm correct) in 2012, that was already decided some time ago. So more to come?

[Bralo20]

And apparently even though they seem to agreed to AMR to re-engine the 737 they are coming back on their steps:

By Christopher Hinton

WASHINGTON (MarketWatch) -- France's Airbus triumphed over Boeing on Wednesday after American Airlines said it would split its new aircraft order between the two. The split not only broke Boeing's monopoly at American, but it also highlighted the Chicago manufacturer's folly in not offering a new, more fuel efficient engine with its popular 737 aircraft, said Robert Stallard, an analyst with RBC Capital. AMR's order showed that the Airbus A320neo was "clearly a benefit" in securing the deal, Stallard said. Boeing has said it would make a decision on whether it would re-engine the 737 or build a completely new one later this year. Earlier, American ordered 460 new planes from the manufacturers.

[RoMax]

Well that's because the board of directors has not approved the programme yet (as said by Boeing, they expect official launch between late September and late December). But they can't say they will go for the RE for sure as they don't know for sure what the decision of the board will be. If the board rejects the B737RE programm they will to a NSA (new short haul aircraft). But the chance is rather small that the board will reject this re-engine project as that would be a terrible decision for Boeing wich will for now on focus mainly on the re-engine project.

BTW, just tought about it by reading something on airliners.net. This is not the first time Boeing loses such a big order to Airbus. Do you remember United replacing the B737 with A320's before Boeing decided to launch the B737NG. Why are they always waiting so long, until they see they can't wait any longer. Now they reacted a bit faster, so they could secure at least a part of the order. UA was completely lost in the B737/A320 segment.

[Desert Rat]

Also I thought the GTF's diameter is too large to fit under a 737 anyway, while the Leap-X's is close enough to the current 737 engines to make this possible. Not that you can get a 737 with non-CFM engines right now anyway, so this is a moot point.

Will it the beginning of a MLDG shortening mechanism on a Single Aisle A/C??

[RoMax]

Boeing CEO gave some more details why they decided to go for the re-engined B737. He said the technology for a brand new design is ready, but the production system is not ready for such a new aircraft.
This may be one of the big reasons indeed (ONE of the, not THE )as a high rate production of a composite airplane may cause problems as composite takes longer to assembly (remember the Mitsubishi replaced a composite wing with an aluminium-lithium one because of production). But at this moment the biggest advantage of a new design would have been achieved by a very large amount of light composites. And in that case the mass production of composite materials may not be fast enough.

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/20 ... gined.html

Next, Boeing blamed the shortage of customers for the re-engined B737 on the lack of a board approval. But Boeing expects that the orders will flood in once approval is secured. Boeing again confirmed that official launch is expected in fall 2011 after wich a large amount of orders is expected.

The head of American said he is not in a position to say if AA will be the first airline to operate the re-engined B737, but he said he would be happy to do it.

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/20 ... board.html

Boeing doesn't want to admit that it is AA wich 'forced' Boeing to launch the B737RE, but that seems logicall now. Otherwise Boeing wouldn't have rushed to offer AA something to make sure that they wouldn't only order Airbus. Anyway by this AA actually also did an offer to the competition like United, Delta and Southwest who are all targeting new orders late this year or in 2012. Now it is sure what Boeing will do, so airlines can choose between Airbus and Boeing without having the doubts about the future plans of Boeing. Without the AA order, Boeing probably wouldn't have announced anything until late 2011.

[RoMax]

Some more news. Boeing said they plan to have final configuration for their re-engined B737 in the next 3 to 4 weeks. The final and major decision that has to made is the size of the Leap-x engine that will power the new B737. They are looking at the fan size of the engine. They say they have now 4 options and all 4 of them are good, but they still have to decide wich one is the best.
They have to find the right combination of the right fan size and as few as possible changes to the current B737 design.

Further:

- As they said before about a re-engined 737, they target at 12-15% more fuel efficiency then the current B737NG's
- AA would get it's first Leap-x powered 737 by 2018 (and not by 2017 as said before)
- Boeing aims at a mid-decade first delivery what indicates that AA may be not the first operator of the new B737 as Boeing said in May that they aim for a 2016-2017 EIS if they would launch a re-engined 737. Today Boeing gave no more details than: "mid-decade".

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/20 ... e-fan.html

[earthman]

And after weeks of deliberation Boeing decided that the fans of the new engines will be..... round!

Seriously though, making the nose landing gear 20 cm longer to ensure the new engines still clear the taxiway lights seems like an awful kludge.

[sn26567]

Interesting analysis by Reuters: Airbus compelled Boeing to do exactly what they wanted them to do. The largest thread for the A320NEO would have been a completely new Boeing narrow-body. By swamping the market with orders for the A320NEO, Airbus left Boeing with no other choice than to re-engine its 737. Airbus remained the leader and Boeing was the follower. The thread was over!

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/07/ ... D220110721

[RoMax]

Interesting analysis by Reuters: Airbus compelled Boeing to do exactly what they wanted them to do. The largest thread for the A320NEO would have been a completely new Boeing narrow-body. By swamping the market with orders for the A320NEO, Airbus left Boeing with no other choice than to re-engine its 737. Airbus remained the leader and Boeing was the follower. The thread was over!

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/07/ ... D220110721

It's a BIG victory for Airbus. As Boeing said some months ago, they don't like to follow others, they want others to need to follow them (as they did with the B787, and with several other things in history). But I wouldn't call the NEO orders THE reason for Boeing to build a re-engined version. As several times said before, the hundreds of orders/commitments the NEO now has, there are only a few airlines who also use B737's (like SAS and Garuda, and Garuda even ordered it for a daughter and not for theirself and SAS always had a mixed fleet). So these airlines would've ordered Airbus anyway anytime. THE thing that changed Boeing's mind were the POSSIBLE orders for the NEO. Delta, United, American and Southwest were all looking at a big narrowbody fleet order and they all said they couldn't wait until 2020 for a new aircraft. Seriously Boeing can not afford it to lose such big orders because they can't even offer something these airlines would look at for these orders. AA was a Boeing client and they lost it partly (but in contradiction to what I said before, not only because they were too slow, but do you see one company like Boeing building 460 aircraft to begin between 2013 and 2022 for one company? with other big orders also comming in? Airbus would have taken away a part of the order anyway, but it could be MUCH more for Boeing). Southwest is a massive 737 client, they CAN'T loose that one, but they would have without a B737RE, at least for a part. Delta was a Boeing client (like AA and CO, they had a gentlemens agreement to order Boeing only), but than the merger came... Boeing was not sure anymore that they could secure a Delta order. They had to build something that DL really wants, and for this first order that wasn't a new design. And last but not least, United/Continental. They could have been quite sure of a CO order, anyway what they build (CO has a quite young 737 fleet, so no immediate need for replacement). But now they have the UA merger. UA has A320... suddenly Boeing could not be sure anymore of a big CO order. And UA has some quite old A320's already, they can wait longer than AA and Southwest (B733) for exemple, but it was the question if they could wait until 2020 or even longer when they are not an early client.

So these orders wich are supposed to be placed between now and the end of 2011 (for sure the DL order will be this year, UA and Southwest may take a bit longer) could possibly go to the NEO. Losing AA partly is bad, but not a disaster. Losing CO (UA), Southwest, DL (NW) and AA completly would be deadly.

[RoMax]

And after weeks of deliberation Boeing decided that the fans of the new engines will be..... round!

Seriously though, making the nose landing gear 20 cm longer to ensure the new engines still clear the taxiway lights seems like an awful kludge.

Boeing has 4 options wich they are evaluating about the fan diameter and raising the gear or not. Boeing has to maintain 43cm under each nacelle to clear taxiway lights, that's not a choice, that's something that's required.
Boeing can have a bigger fan size without having to make the gear longer, but that's limited. If they want a bigger fan size they need a longer gear. And they are now evaluating (together with possible clients and for sure AA) wich combination of fan size and gear is the best choice.
Together with other final choices, the final configuration should be firm within 3-4 weeks.

[regi]

but the production system is not ready for such a new aircraft.
And in that case the mass production of composite materials may not be fast enough.

I pointed to this manufacturing bottle neck years ago, several times.
I suggest members with 5 minutes of time to read the section about "moulding" of this article first.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Composite_manufacturing
The autoclaves for the fuselage sections had to be build on purpose.
( I supplied some parts to an autoclave manufacturer so I know exactly where I talk about )
You can not speed up the process in the autoclave. You have to follow the exact cycle.
In this respect I denounce the remark of the Boeing CEO as half true. It is just a matter of installing more autoclaves. But that is an extra investment. I can tell you frankly that if you order today a battery of 10 similar large autoclaves, you have them installed within 1 year.
What the manufacturing of the specific components of composite materials concerns, it is also not impossible to increase the output of fibers, resin, filament. It is just again a matter of doubling the machinery.
And that is where it goes wrong at many companies. They frankly refuse to take a certain risk ( what if the world economy shows a sudden dip again and orders are cancelled or postponed ?).
The big danger of this Boeing-Airbus thing is that suddenly a third party pops up and says: "hello, my new and modern narrow body is ready for delivery within 2 years"

[regi]

And this subject also sheds a light on Ryanair who looks for capacity in China. ( and not just a cheaper solution)
Just as I said: Ryanair managers are not stupid ( otherwise they would not be where they are now ). They want to have a choice. They see these large replacement orders coming and know the mentality of the current big players A+B who refuse to increase production capacity.
I assume that this AA order makes some people at Ryanair quite nervous.
And more bad news regarding capacity is coming, with my next topic I launch within minute...

[RoMax]

It's indeed possible to use more autoclaves and machinery. But the thing is, that makes the production of small composite aircraft at a simular rate of current B737/A320 much more expensive. And it's the question if you gain enough by using composite in a small aircraft to justify the more expensive production... And that's why Airbus and now Boeing decide to wait with a new composite short haul aircraft.

Remember last week or so Boeing said they can possibly increase B737 production to 60/month (they plan 42 for early 2014 and Airbus 42 somewhere in 2012) to respond at increasing demand. This is possible with the current aircraft. It would be possible with a new composite one also, but at a much higher price. Boeing and Airbus don't want to do that. They want to build the current B737NG/RE and A320/A320NEO at high production rates of up 60/month (wich is enormous actually, 60/month by two companies...), but they don't want to do it with a new composite aircraft, because that would cost them too much money. So they will probably wait until there are cheaper/faster production technologies available.

Airbus and Boeing yesterday said they could increase production of the B737 and A320 as result of the AA order wich is huge and would need a large part of the production. And with possible more of such HUGE orders (like you point out, possibly AirAsia may order even more) it seems Airbus and Boeing can't deny the demand for higher production rates (wich is why Boeing may decided to delay a new design, production would become to expensive whith a composite aircraft). To ensure more orders, they have to be able to promise customers a 'early' delivery, so higher production rates are needed.

(btw, maybe you know that some parts of the new Lockheed F-35 will be made as some kind of composite build with nano technology. This product is known and much much stronger than current composites, but expensive to produce. Lockheed says they found a way to produce these new kind of composites much cheaper and faster. Tests with a F-35 started recently. This may eventually influence production of civil aircraft at least if Lockheed is right.)

[earthman]

The big danger of this Boeing-Airbus thing is that suddenly a third party pops up and says: "hello, my new and modern narrow body is ready for delivery within 2 years"

This is sort of what I was thinking - both Airbus and Boeing are setting themselves up for getting caught with their pants down when a third party would decide to enter that market with a brand new cutting edge design. It has happened in many industries before, just look at the American automobile industry.

[earthman]

(btw, maybe you know that some parts of the new Lockheed F-35 will be made as some kind of composite build with nano technology. This product is known and much much stronger than current composites, but expensive to produce at high production levels. Lockheed says they found a way to produce these new kind of composites much cheaper and faster. Tests with a F-35 started recently. This may eventually influence production of civil aircraft at least if Lockheed is right.)

I think we would all be delighted if Lockheed were to re-enter the civil airliner market!