BrusselsAirlines - the TURBOPROPS will come!

[tolipanebas]

SN should think OUTSIDE THE BOX of summer and winter timetables. Let's offer flights to town X during week Y when there is a specific trade fair - kind of regular charter flights.
Also more seats on the friday, sunday, monday flights on fi Bristol, Newcastle etc. are required! We are missing a lot of seats and high yield revenue on many of those flights!!

You have to ask yourself the question: where do I get the capacity from to operate those flights and what do I do with it the rest of the time? Do you have an answer to that? Otherwise, it's not going to happen, for sure.

I agree BRS for instance could do with more capacity on some days of the week, yet who says the additional wetleased Q400s aren't going to be able to take care of that? It's perfectly possible that as the wetleased regional fleet grows, there will be more network optimalisations possible, in which for instance a Q400 operates to BRS on some flights, with the regular E-jet then taking over another flight elsewhere in the network. Until now, it has been a bit difficult to do this with only 2 E-jets and 1 Q400, but it will be easier to do so, as the fleet grows as from January next year and it is very interesting to do it, hence this having priority to opening new destinations with them...

A good out of the box idea for this winter would be to place some of our excess planes with other members of the LH group of airlines. The final winter schedule isn't out yet, so it's hard to predict if there will be any excess planes around even, but notably BD would be better off if it were to operate one (or a few even) wetleased RJs on its thinner routes out of LHR, notably during the quiet winter months and both LH as well as LX are permanently wetleasing F100s to operate some of their flights too, although those could be harder nuts to crack than BD, given these are long term leases and SN can not spare the plane(s) for them long-term. Still, operating on behalf of another LH group member could be a win-win situation for all involved, IMHO, so it is definitely something they'd need to look into carefully.

[tolipanebas]

Well, even if I have to admit that with T5 at LHR is not that bad as it used to be I cannot agree on that negative view on the LH NEK. The seats are quite OK and legroom actually is absolutely OK. In my experience BA certainly has no advantage here with their product. The only problem with the seats is that if the person in the row behind you does put a glass bottle or anything else very hard in the net on the back of the seat you sometimes actually do feel this in your back As I said, not perfect, but not worse than any other of the big European network carriers.

I agree with you on both accounts.
The new recaro seats are obviously a unit cost reducing measure packed as a comfort improving measure, but then isn't everything in aviation these days? Fact is, comfort has actually improved with the new seats, at least according to my (and your) opinion, while at the same time the plane shed a significant portion of its dry operating weight AND has received more revenue potential! In my world, that's a win-win situation.

Besides, I've heard rumours the net is going to be removed so pax can no longer stow anything there... Problem solved in a typically German no-nonsense way, I should say?

The few pax in business or b.flex or whatever you call the fully flexible eco tickets are the ones you need to have to run a full network carrier, they bring the big money and most of them do know the aircraft types and yes I do my checks before I agree with my office on a schedule for a certain business trip. I want to know which airline, which aircraft types etcetera. And even if there is a more direct or cheaper connection with a LCC or an airline I do not like or with an aircraft being used on that route I will opt for the connection I like most (as long as it somehow stays within the limits of the usual pricing and the timing is OK). So if those pax do not want TPs, forget it.

That is indeed how it goes at most companies these days.

Whenever certain travel needs arise, the office immediately takes an option on a certain flight, the one who has to take the flight (or his manager) approves of the travel as well as the ticket itinary/price and then the ticket is booked. Rest assured most frequent corporate travellers do know the good planes from the bad, as well as the good airlines from the bad, and have their travel booked accordingly. No way will they approve of anything they don't like, if there's a better alternative available for roughly the same price!

I've said it numerous times before: pax select the airline, not the other way round and this is especially valid for the premium booking classes, as you've once again come to illustrate here vividly, thank you!

For the rest I agree with tolipanebas

Thank you, knowing your background a bit, I'll take that as an endorsement, although some here would just call you another dull manager who doesn't know what he's talking about!

[airazurxtror]

It is important to show Ryanair/Easy jet that we are there, competing them and stopping them in the near future -

This is known as wishful thinking ...
Ryanair has sold 75,472 million seats from July 10 to June 11, has a fleet of 272 189-seat recent aircraft, and made a profit of 401 millions euros last year.
What of Brussels Airlines ?

[Air Key West]

This is off topic, but since it was mentioned in this thread I feel I have to react. I disagree with Tolipanebas and Euroflyer concering the new recaro seats : they are extremely uncomfortable. Recently, I flew one leg with OS with the new seats (found them uncomfortable) and then connecting in Vienna I got onto another OS plane with the old seats : what a relief, a lot more comfortable. LH wants us to believe their new seats are better, yes they are better for the airline (cost reduction and more pax in the same plane, only they are worse for the pax. I felt like leaning against a wooden board (same experience on SN to GVA).
I am seriously considering avoiding the LH Group at least for longer flights and even considering switching alliances. Most of my travel is in Business class and I don't want to pay C fares to have to travel in an uncomfortable seat.

[Passenger]

... But there seems to be enough money for useless Recaro seats...

http://travel.usatoday.com/flights/post ... -/416189/1

These stupid Americans are going to spend 500 million USD on useless Recaro seats and other stuff!

[RoMax]

... But there seems to be enough money for useless Recaro seats...

http://travel.usatoday.com/flights/post ... -/416189/1

These stupid Americans are going to spend 500 million USD on useless Recaro seats and other stuff!

Oh god no, this airline must be run by really stupid people, isn't it? Maybe Flanker should first see wich airline already uses these useless (ultra) light weight seats and why they do it. This is indeed an investment that takes some time to see the advantage financially because you have the (big) investment first. But Flanker seems to think that every investment that doesn't immediately result in more money on the balance sheet is a bad, useless investment. But 1-2-... years after this investment there is much more money comming in thanks to that investment than they ever invested in it. But somehow he doesn't want to see this, because it doesn't fit in his idea to be negative about everything SN does.

[Flanker]

These stupid Americans are going to spend 500 million USD on useless Recaro seats and other stuff!

Hummmm different story here.
UA's financial position is in a different dimension than SN's and UA is going for a real product upgrade, not a downgrade disguised as an upgrade.

But Flanker seems to think that every investment that doesn't immediately result in more money on the balance sheet is a bad, useless investment.

Oh, why in hell am I bothering.
Let's put this conversation on hold until you realize that SN's funds will dry up in a matter of months.

When you're hungry, you don't plant seeds, you buy food.
Plus, in this case SN is planting seeds of inedible flowers.

A good out of the box idea for this winter would be to place some of our excess planes with other members of the LH group of airlines. The final winter schedule isn't out yet, so it's hard to predict if there will be any excess planes around even, but notably BD would be better off if it were to operate one (or a few even) wetleased RJs on its thinner routes out of LHR, notably during the quiet winter months and both LH as well as LX are permanently wetleasing F100s to operate some of their flights too, although those could be harder nuts to crack than BD, given these are long term leases and SN can not spare the plane(s) for them long-term. Still, operating on behalf of another LH group member could be a win-win situation for all involved, IMHO, so it is definitely something they'd need to

Uuuuuh goood idea.
How many wetleased Avro's do you think we can fool those English into taking? 10, 20? After all, they built the bloody thing.

We're gonna be rich! $$$$$$$

[regi]

Well, that is heavy ! Zillions of travellers do everything to avoid LHR ( + CDG and to a lesser degree FRA ) because "too big".
But you want to pay the price on the stress side to sit in a more confortable chair for some hours.

The first time I visited LHR was back in 2006 when flying to SFO. Back then I said that it would be the first and the last time I've visted LHR if I could avoid it... It took nearly 2 hours to get from one terminal to another, go through security walk to the gate, etc... I really hated the experience... However when T5 opened I took a flight through LHR again and it was quite nice, also the lounges are nice and I barely had to complain. Arriving at T5 and leaving at T5 is quite OK, it's when you have to change terminals that's it's becoming a hell...
And yes, my comfort is primar... I have issues with my back and so I prefer to fly business class through LHR when I need to fly in the EU...

No opinion, just a thought. ( customer is king )

I get your point, but I don't want to suffer while flying, being 2m03 tall it's hard enough as it is... I had no need for a terrible seat.

Your reply is in fact a good lesson for people active in the aviation industry. Every passenger has his own desires, needs, reasons.
Your example of physical objections can not be downgraded by anybody. For you this is a primary factor.
Small side note : you take business class. So NCB was right in the past that some people travel business short haul and are willing to fork out money for it, as long as they get what they pay for.
Just another example: are we aware how many people avoid flying and travel by rail/train/ferry because they had bad experiences, cannot take enough luggage, hate airports, are afraid of flying etcetera ?

[Bralo20]

These stupid Americans are going to spend 500 million USD on useless Recaro seats and other stuff!

Oh god no, this airline must be run by really stupid people, isn't it?

I don't know where you read this but United isn't going to install Recaro seats in their fleet... They are going to install new business seats in the 757's currently flying the PS fleet and they are going to upgrade other planes including the A32S which will get new overhead bins and a refreshing of the interior but this doesn't include new seats.

[Bralo20]

Your reply is in fact a good lesson for people active in the aviation industry. Every passenger has his own desires, needs, reasons.
Your example of physical objections can not be downgraded by anybody. For you this is a primary factor.
Small side note : you take business class. So NCB was right in the past that some people travel business short haul and are willing to fork out money for it, as long as they get what they pay for.
Just another example: are we aware how many people avoid flying and travel by rail/train/ferry because they had bad experiences, cannot take enough luggage, hate airports, are afraid of flying etcetera ?

I'm more then happy to pay for business class when flying short/mid haul if I get what I want, unfortunately only British Airways seems to have somewhat of a decent business class. They have comfortable seats and offer slightly better legroom. This is why I want to fly even through LHR. I have no need to arrive somewhere for a meeting or even for a holiday and start with a back that's killing me. That's why I like flying domestic in the USA so much. The fares of "F" in the USA are quite comparable with "C" in Europe, yet they manage to offer a true "premium" product: wider seats, more legroom, upgraded amenities/food, etc... Unfortunately the "premium" experience isn't so good in Europe though I'm more then willing to pay for it if it would exist.

[tolipanebas]

How many wetleased Avro's do you think we can fool those English into taking? 10, 20?

You have to get some professional help, NCB, as you clearly suffer from outright megalomania as
are able to talk in double digits only when it comes to the future fleet planning of an airline which has only 48 planes in total: daydreaming about the introduction of 35 Q400s or 20 A319LRs is just not very realistic, you know?

A more modest and gradual yet also far more realistic evolution like adding a couple of wetleased Q400s just isn't your cup of tea, is it, right? Too dull, too managerial... too real-world too, maybe?

Let's put this conversation on hold until you realize that SN's funds will dry up in a matter of months.

The funny thing with you is Flanker, you say we shouldn't expect a huge turnaround from a handful of wetleases, which isn't the main purpose of it, yet you seem to be vehemently believing that a similar small adjustment in our medium haul fleet (coincidental with the implementation of the volume strategy) is somehow responsible for the losses SN could be booking this year!

You can't have it all, can you now?

If planning on operating a fleet of 3 Q400s isn't going to be but a completely useless drop in the ocean, then surely replacing a same number of RJs with 4 A32F (operating half of the time on charterflights, BTW) can't have drained but a similar small drop from the same ocean too, can it?

Reality is of course that the volume strategy isn't responsible for any losses at all, quite on the contrary even, but rather is the political instability in 2 key African destinations (ABJ and DKR) in the first half of this year, as well as the jojo ride oil prices are taking and which make it very hard to estimate operating costs on future flights with their tickets sold today...

Or did you really think that those 19% additional passengers SN flies around these days are all crammed into the 50 extra seats of those 4 A32F we've added since the beginning of spring? ROTFL.

You draw the analogy with a restaurant facing competition from a large pizzahut venue next door and say:

Why open a second floor in your restaurant and pay extra for electricity, gas, rent, personnel, when your first floor is only 60% full on average? Lower the price a little bit on the first floor and make sure you get it 90% full. You achieve the same results as opening the second floor, without the extra costs and make more profits.

Which is basically what happened, you know?

The 20+ strong RJ fleet is packed to a much better capacity now than in the past, while in the mean time our roofterrace was opened up for lunch and diner for the first time too with the addition of the extra capacity those 4 A319F now offer. Nobody has built a second floor as that would mean adding 15 or even 20 A319F or so, which ironically was YOUR idea one day, remember?

Once again, you seem to agrue mainly with your own plans from the recent past here.

Could you please first come up with a consistant business plan you can somehow realisitically implement, because the more one discusses with you, the more inconsistent and ill-considered your comments and alternatives become... Oh, and one final hint: don't plan on anything revolutionary: a gradual evolution is what is needed and yes that takes time to achive. Dull, isn't it?

[tolipanebas]

That's why I like flying domestic in the USA so much. The fares of "F" in the USA are quite comparable with "C" in Europe, yet they manage to offer a true "premium" product: wider seats, more legroom, upgraded amenities/food, etc... Unfortunately the "premium" experience isn't so good in Europe though I'm more then willing to pay for it if it would exist.

I'd love it when there would be much more tall people like you in Europe!

I am sure premium network airlines would love to see that too, however, factual data just shows the pool of people like you to be very small and shrinking every year still, so that market definitely isn't enough to base a business model on, certainly not now that around 85% of corporate contract signatories in Europe have an 'economy only' travel policy in place for medium haul travel.

I reckon you either pay for your C class mediumhaul ticket yourself or are working for one of the few companies still allowing C class travel on medium haul? Remember however neither case is the norm these days in Europe.

[Bralo20]

I'd love it when there would be much more tall people like you in Europe!

I would wish it too since flying in Europe is really terrible for tall people

I am sure premium network airlines would love to see that too, however, factual data just shows the pool of people like you to be very small and shrinking every year still, so that market definitely isn't enough to base a business model on, certainly not now that around 85% of corporate contract signatories in Europe have an 'economy only' travel policy in place for medium haul travel.

I know... But nothing will change if the carriers are staying with the current setup of the "premium" cabins... Why should one pay more to fly in business in Europe when you get exactly the same as in economy (minus a blocked middle seat and some food)? If I had a company I would sign also a economy only policy at the moment... However, if one carrier would present a decent business class, one that is really different from economy I reckon that more companies would be willing to pay for it... But now? I don't see any need to fly business for most people... If you have a certain status at an alliance you'll get access to the lounges no matter if you fly business or economy so no need to buy business as a frequent flyer... So what remains? The priority lane at the airport? Even that is granted to higher elites...

I buy business class with BA because there is a difference of 3 inches in legroom. 3 inches doesn't sound much and it really isn't but every inch or even every centimeters matters if you are 2m03 tall...

I reckon you either pay for your C class mediumhaul ticket yourself or are working for one of the few companies still allowing C class travel on medium haul? Remember however neither case is the norm these days in Europe.

Normally I don't need to fly for the job. As a fleet manager for a large construction company most of my suppliers have a branch in Belgium, France, Germany or The Netherlands (and thus reachable by car). However, most of the manufacturers of the machinery we use are located across Europe and from time to time (a couple of times a year) I'm invited to come and check the factory, to test new machinery, to discuss improvements, etc... This means that my travel is paid for by the supplier and in 90% of the time unfortunately this means flying in economy, which is something I don't do anymore... (once a manufacturer send over his private jet so that's nice, but unfortunately it's very rare to do so these days) So if I'm really interested in going I'll arrange that I buy my tickets myself and that I combine business with pleasure (staying an extra day for a citytrip or so). Flying is a passion so I don't mind paying my tickets myself. And if you know the way arround bookingengines you can even find rather cheap business class tickets across Europe, certainly with BA

We don't even have a travel policy in place in our company We mostly work for the government so there isn't much need to travel If travel is necessary (visiting suppliers isn't considered necessary (I'm trying to change that )) then everything is paid back without an issue but preferable with Ryanair if possible (my boss loves them for a reason I don't understand , probably because they fly to an airport near his summerhouse in France)

[Passenger]

Could you please first come up with a consistant business plan you can somehow realisitically implement, because the more one discusses with you, the more inconsistent and ill-considered your comments and alternatives become...

Agree with you tolipanebas, if he posts it where it belongs : in Luchtzak's Pub forum.

[regi]

I am sure premium network airlines would love to see that too, however, factual data just shows the pool of people like you to be very small and shrinking every year still, so that market definitely isn't enough to base a business model on, certainly not now that around 85% of corporate contract signatories in Europe have an 'economy only' travel policy in place for medium haul travel.
I reckon you either pay for your C class mediumhaul ticket yourself or are working for one of the few companies still allowing C class travel on medium haul? Remember however neither case is the norm these days in Europe.

There is some change going on from the companies that allow their personnel again to fly business. 3 years ago , one of the top 5 Belgian machinery construction companies implemented less travel, more video conference and no more business class. Just last week I heard that since February most of the intervention mechanics fly business again. Reason: change flights according the time that the intervention is finished; more luggage for equipment; fresh to start the job immediatley when they get off the plane. In this way they can do 2 or 3 interventions a week all over the world !
Other managers ( purchasing, sales) are allowed to fly business again because it was felt that there was no more enough personal contact, hands on approach.
And this same company still has its policy that Ryanair is completely banned. Even for private use. If you show up too late at work because you got stuck on the Canary Islands, it is considered as your own fault .
A large Brittish manufacturing group confirmed to me exactly the same. Their cost cutting action by flying economy has hurt them and it is back to business again. They mostly fly BA, and the World Traveller's Plus is for the managers. Business is for the intervention teams ( and the miles are for the personnel !)
Without having a clue about the hard figures, I have a gut feeling that it would be the right moment for a full service carrier to promote they have real business class (again) with 2 rows of 4 seats in front of their B737 or A320.

[tolipanebas]

Why should one pay more to fly in business in Europe when you get exactly the same as in economy (minus a blocked middle seat and some food)? If I had a company I would sign also a economy only policy at the moment... However, if one carrier would present a decent business class, one that is really different from economy I reckon that more companies would be willing to pay for it?

Highly doubt it.

After all, most companies aren't generally caring that much about above-average comfort of their staff on European business travel, they just care about a fair price-quality and quality in the case of a corporate airline ticket means full flexibility, fastlane, lounge access (in case of delays), etc.

Your company doesn't have a travel policy (lucky you!), yet maybe you should just try to get hold of a full travel policy of a big international company to see a clear picture of what is still allowed these days: it's actually quite sobering. Well, actually, you've experienced it already first hand when you say 9 out of 10 invitations from suppliers to come over and visit them are on economy tickets! And that's for handouts to customers! Imagine what it must be for their own staff then?! Seems like the only staff still flying business class on shorthaul is airline staff on their own metal (no surprise, I should guess) yet even there, you see some airlines which don't allow it any longer! SN as an exemple!

Think about this one for analogy: do companies generally let their staff on business travel spend their nights away at the top-rated Conrad hotel in town, or just book at the very decent Holiday Inn or Novotel for less money?
Unless you can score the Conrad for the price of the Novotel, or the Conrad is the only hotel with rooms left, I don't think many people on a standard business trip will ever set food in the Conrad really, at least not if their company needs to pick up the bill.

Corporate travel in Europe is predominantly economy travel: STAR (as well as other alliances) spend fortunes on surveying corporate travel policies of the top 500 companies in Europe just to know what they can get away with still, and they know very well it's a ship which has sailed forever, hence nobody is investing any money in a real C class product for Europe: C class is predominantly there for connecting pax these days, so as to offer them a constant product experience throughout their journey.

BTW, OS and BD used to have planes with a dedicated C class on European routes until quite recently and they both experienced first hand they couldn't fill any of their premium seats any better than they can fill regular seats really, despite BD being based at LHR, which is a very high yield market (banking centre of Europe)!

Nobody would mind sitting in a real clubseat of course, but not enough people are willing to pay the premium to actually make the business case for installing such seats.
It's not the retired couple going to VCE to make a luxurious second honeymoon cruise in the Med which is going to make the business case, it's the dull manager going on his weekly business trip to the plant in BHX, BRS or HAM which must be won over and with him going over with a powerpoint presentation on the latest round of cost cutting (do they ever do anything else, BTW?), chances he will want to increase travel budgets just to sit in a clubseat for 1 hour are rather slim, exceptions notwithstanding, unfortunately!

[Flanker]

The 20+ strong RJ fleet is packed to a much better capacity now than in the past, while in the mean time our roofterrace was opened up for lunch and diner for the first time too with the addition of the extra capacity those 4 A319F now offer. Nobody has built a second floor as that would mean adding 15 or even 20 A319F or so, which ironically was YOUR idea one day, remember?

Then why are we seeing only a 2% YTD increase in load factors and double digit traffic increase?
In the month of May, load factors increased only 0.7% despite an 18% increase in traffic.
This clearly conflicts with the picture you're painting.

This means that there are more flights but they're not more full.

Don't forget also that the 15-18% traffic increase we're seeing is partially an artifical result of low bookings during the volcano saga period last year (because no one was sure when it would end) and an additional A333 operating to Africa.

Additional flights have been added in Europe, by using the larger A319/B737 more heavily.

Reality is of course that the volume strategy isn't responsible for any losses at all, quite on the contrary even, but rather is the political instability in 2 key African destinations (ABJ and DKR) in the first half of this year, as well as the jojo ride oil prices are taking and which make it very hard to estimate operating costs on future flights with their tickets sold today...

Let's settle this once and for all. I didn't want to write this because it doesn't make the CEO's look good, but you're making me.

If ABJ and DKR have proved anything, it's how inefficient and inflexible the triangular system with A333 is.

About the fuel prices, I think that it's a case of starting to believe your own propaganda. A large part of the fuel price increase is dampened by the increase of the euro VS the dollar. The increase of the euro is smaller than the increase in fuel prices, but the advantage applies to a larger cost base, which includes not only fuel but also leasing costs, aircraft parts and many other expenses paid for in dollars.
If you factor that in and you factor in the additional profits from the addition of the 5th A333 and the fact that we didn't have the volcano situation this year, then SN should have been almost break-even.

Point made: your volume strategy, if it had worked, should have resulted in turning it into a profit.
Instead, we're losing more money than we should have, so it's clear that the volume strategy is not working.


I welcome Regi and Bralo20's comments on the merits of a better C product.
Just yesterday I was reading this trip report on Flyertalk, of a SN flight in C. Boy are the boys and girls serving for SN doing a great job. Give them a superior product and they will make miracles.
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/trip-rep ... ay-dc.html

As can be seen in the Korongo forum, this is what's going to be flying on the 737 in Congo. I've seen it and it gives a totally different look to the cabin. It makes it feel like a premium airline and makes the passengers walking to the back want to try the business class experience.

[tolipanebas]

Then why are we seeing only a 2% YTD increase in load factors and double digit traffic increase?
This clearly conflicts with the picture you're painting: I say there are more flights but they're not more full.

What you'd need to have access to is loadfactor and production figures for the European network alone.
Do you?

The all-in-one AEA figures are pretty much useless in this discussion as they include longhaul and thus include mishaps like the closure of ABJ for several weeks (followed by an empty resumption) as well as the fact we had to de-triangle DKR from its tag-on destinations due to political problems, forcing SN to operate 2 half empty longhaul planes rather than 1 full for many months in a row!
I'd say those are 2 key elements which normally distroy a LF for an airline the size of SN.
The fact it didn't, is because we're hauling massively more pax on Europe, not just per day, but also on average per plane as anybody who regularly takes an SN flight can tell you.

About the fuel prices, a large part of the fuel price increase is dampened by the increase of the euro VS the dollar. The increase of the euro is smaller than the increase in fuel prices, but the advantage applies to a larger cost base, which includes not only fuel but also leasing costs, aircraft parts and many other expenses paid for in dollars. If you factor that in and you factor in the additional profits from the addition of the 5th A333 and the fact that we didn't have the volcano situation this year, then SN should have been almost break-even.

That's a whole lot of half-true statements and wild assumptions in once sentence, without anything to even approximately quantify the end conclusion you come up with, which is obviously not correct once more.

Let's just point out that the dollar depreciated by about 15% since this time last year, while fuel rose by 45% over the same time!

I'd really love to see the costbase you'd need to have in order to allow offsetting the negative impact from such a fuel price explosion with the effect a weakening dollar has on non-fuel costs, but I can assure you an airline with such a costbase would long have gone bust already!

[regi]

I really wonder what this profit is to NOT install 2 x 2 luxury seats instead of the 2x 3 with the bocked middle one.
Again, I have no numbers. Others probably have.
But look: 2 rows is a difference of 4 seats : 2x2x2= 8 seats as business seats and 2x3x2= 12 economy seats ( of which mostly 4 seats are blocked )
If these airplanes are used regularly for charters, I can understand. But otherwise, it is strange. ( how often are those airplanes 100% full ? )
The marketing difference is huge: business class with a blocked middle seat is just marketing BS. Imagine you come from the States in a real business class seat and you end up in a but squeezing connection flight.
I guess that the big problem is that the big players all do it. Just take Star Alliance in Europe: if they would have to bring back 2 rows of 4 luxury seats, it involves a lot of airplanes !

There are different ways to sell this product: Nokair from Thailand does it for a simple surcharge of 9 € one way. ( difference between Flex and Nok Plus ) And you get this:
http://www.airliners.net/photo/Nok-Air- ... bb49afe209

Another way is for early bookings + seat selection at no surcharge ! So when you book early and you select a luxury seat at economy price, you don't pay more. But if business travellers pay for your seat, you get a message that the seat has been bought and you are invited to re-arrange your seating. This sounds not so weird if you take into acount that you can select nice extra legroom seats free of charge with some airlines.

[Bralo20]

I would happily pay for such a nice business class on short and mid haul... And it would certainly give me a reason to fly SN again...