BrusselsAirlines - the TURBOPROPS will come!

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Boavida
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Re: BrusselsAirlines - the TURBOPROPS will come!

Post by Boavida »

azingrew wrote:There is an interesting and animated thread on the " avoidance of the american public of TP" on airliners.net. Lots of pros and cons ( monstly con though). A few guys raise the subject of the perception the general public has on TP's and it confirms what I said somewhere here above: In my experience as a former travel agent, I can guarantie you that the general public does not like TP's and some people would even go to great length to avoid them. Propeller are often associated with "old" no matter how modern they are.
Many people would rather sit on a ratling 737-200 rather than a new TP. It might be absurd, but that's what it is.
Just a quick quote from someone on the airliners thread which I found interesting:
"Tprops are cheaper is a very broad statement If you mean operationally, then yes on shorter routes less than 500nm as a baseline, they are usually cheaper to operate than an RJ because they burn less fuel and the stage length time on such a short flight is negligible between the Q400/ATR-72, etc vs. the Rj. But when you start going past that range, the savings are negligible because of the slower cruise speed of a tprop."

So, to sum it up, my thoughts on a massive TP order at SN is that it ain't gonna happen.

Absolutely true. Many, many people avoid airlines flying turboprops!

airazurxtror
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Re: BrusselsAirlines - the TURBOPROPS will come!

Post by airazurxtror »

Second hand Airbus from easyJet, then turboprops, and what next ? old 737 surplus to Ryanair ?
There is real glamour at SN !

Boavida
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Re: BrusselsAirlines - the TURBOPROPS will come!

Post by Boavida »

airazurxtror wrote:Second hand Airbus from easyJet, then turboprops, and what next ? old 737 surplus to Ryanair ?
There is real glamour at SN !
Indeed!

... maybe some used Tupolevs in the future? SN is really the "second hand", low-budget airline :|

Great for the image!

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RoMax
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Re: BrusselsAirlines - the TURBOPROPS will come!

Post by RoMax »

So they should lease or order brand new ones to be "more glamorous"...? Wasn't wanting to be "glamorous" one of the reasons of Swissair/Sabena's faillure...?
What's the problem with leasing some EasyJet A319's from 2004 (not that old, isn't it?). Place some new seats in them, paint it and no single pax will say "hmm, I don't like SN, they fly second hand, ex-easyJet aircraft". While they are much cheaper for an airline like SN.
Start thinking about new aircraft when SN is fully owned by LH (and by that, has a company with money behind them). When all shareholders (except LH) are not willing to invest, be happy they still get more A319's...

Passenger
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Re: BrusselsAirlines - the TURBOPROPS will come!

Post by Passenger »

Boavida wrote:
airazurxtror wrote:Second hand Airbus from easyJet, then turboprops, and what next ? old 737 surplus to Ryanair ?
There is real glamour at SN !
Indeed!

... maybe some used Tupolevs in the future? SN is really the "second hand", low-budget airline

Great for the image!
So what? Average fleet age at VLM / CityJet is 20 years. Only second hand turboprops from the previous century. But confidence from passengers and image towards passengers is 100% . And nobody regards CityJet as a low cost airline!

Same applies for Brussels Airlines: well maintained aircraft, straight safety record, friendly staff, seat comfort (= pitch!) is OK, excellent punctuality, Western European average standards. A three star airline. That's all the shareholders who have founded the airline wanted - and the new owners seems also te be happy with that.

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tolipanebas
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Re: BrusselsAirlines - the TURBOPROPS will come!

Post by tolipanebas »

Meanwhile, in the real world, TP operators are moving away from operating their props on routes which see competition use bigger planes and thus pluck all the benefits from a combined high volume and high comfort strategy, while they were taking a serious beating on the route due to universal market dynamics.

The latest example of this to some unbelievable reality is about to come in right under our nose even, as FlyBe will switch from Q400 to Embraer on their MAN-BRU route as from September on!

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=42870&p=252953#p252945

It just proofs once more it really isn't such a brilliant idea to use a Q400 up against a larger, faster and more comfortable plane like the RJ (or A319) on any route which can sustain bigger planes for the simple reason you just can not aggressively compete over the full range of pax with your smaller plane, whereas the idea you could handpick only the most interesting pax has been disproven many times in the past.

Pax choose the airline, not the other way round, so as an airline you need to make sure you make the most compelling offer to all pax all throughout the entire ticket purchase cycle, starting several months prior to the flight, till just an hour prior departure. When you fly a much smaller plane just because that one happens to be the cheapest to operate, you just can't do this and you will lose out on a big number of future pax, leading you to the unwanted situation where the ballance shifts to the advantage of the more expensive plane to operate quite quickly!

FLyBe is demonstrating they agree to this and are soon upgrading to Embraer on their MAN-BRU route, even though their current Q400 is far from full!

Now, imagine that: they actually want to incur much more costs than they only do at present just to run the same number of flights on the route?! They must be insane to do so, surely?! Haven't they read the Q400 sales brochures then? Let's provide them with a link, shall we?

Oh wait, they actually operate the plane and have used it on high demand routes up against RJs or even bigger, only to come to the conclusion it isn't such a great idea to do this indeed and all the sales talk from Bombarier is way off: pax pick the airline, not the other way round, so by operating a Q400 on anything but a very thin route, you lose out big time on a fair portion of the market, often the most luctrative even!
Last edited by tolipanebas on 11 Aug 2011, 16:35, edited 1 time in total.

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RoMax
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Re: BrusselsAirlines - the TURBOPROPS will come!

Post by RoMax »

This is not really "turboprop news" but this is also related to the A319/Q400 discussion.

SN achieved enormous growth in July. Pax numbers rose with 19.3% to a total of 568 000 passengers. And maybe more interesting, loadfactor rose to a record number of 78.7% (compared to 72.8% in 2010).
Especially in Europe SN is growing very fast with 21% more pax. In Africa they grew with 4.7%, that's a smaller growth than previous months, but that's normall as SN started the 4 new AFI destinations in July 2010.

As a comment, SN said their strategy is working and that they are growing faster than many other European airlines. SN also said the growth is not achieved only on holiday destinations (recently it was in the news that last minute holidays were 10-20% higher than in 2010) but in the whole network. But they also stated that this is not an easy year, partly because of the high fuel prices (and SN's fuel consuming fleet of B737's and Avro's...).
Also transfer traffic is still growing very good. SN said that next to the "Star Alliance-effect" they also see more transfer pax in Europe thanks to more promotion. As exemple they gave the promotion of South-Europe in Scandinavia wich resulted in more Scandinavian pax flying trough BRU to South-Europe.

cnc
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Re: BrusselsAirlines - the TURBOPROPS will come!

Post by cnc »

MR_Boeing wrote: SN achieved enormous growth in July. Pax numbers rose with 19.3% to a total of 568 000 passengers. And maybe more interesting, loadfactor rose to a record number of 78.7% (compared to 72.8% in 2010).
Especially in Europe SN is growing very fast with 21% more pax. In Africa they grew with 4.7%, that's a smaller growth than previous months, but that's normall as SN started the 4 new AFI destinations in July 2010.
great news for brussels airport! for SN however those figures don't say much without the operational result

airtrotter
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Re: BrusselsAirlines - the TURBOPROPS will come!

Post by airtrotter »

cnc wrote:
MR_Boeing wrote: SN achieved enormous growth in July. Pax numbers rose with 19.3% to a total of 568 000 passengers. And maybe more interesting, loadfactor rose to a record number of 78.7% (compared to 72.8% in 2010).
Especially in Europe SN is growing very fast with 21% more pax. In Africa they grew with 4.7%, that's a smaller growth than previous months, but that's normall as SN started the 4 new AFI destinations in July 2010.
great news for brussels airport! for SN however those figures don't say much without the operational result
just a (unrelated to this topic)-question that popped-up in my mind reading this,

can SN negotiate better prices with BRU (BAC) when they bring in more pax? (probably so)
that should help the results, no?

regi
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Re: BrusselsAirlines - the TURBOPROPS will come!

Post by regi »

airazurxtror wrote:Second hand Airbus from easyJet, then turboprops, and what next ? old 737 surplus to Ryanair ?
There is real glamour at SN !
This is exactly the same message I sent but that has not come through ( probably my own fault :oops: )
I had made the comparison with an airport: Mae Hong Song airport in Thailand.
First time I visited MHS was by Thai Airways BAE146.( 500 baht one way) Later by ATR.
The service was transfered to Nokair, the low cost daughter company of TG, who continued with ATR. But changed it to Nokmini, from the company SGA Airlines with...Cessna Caravan ! ( 1300 baht one way now by the way, to sit in a unpressurised TP, great :roll: )
It can get smaller : Piper cup :lol:
This downgrading has resulted in the collapse of the local small business tourist industry. Many guides and guesthouses who relied on independant travellers lost the daily influx of clientele.
Be aware that MHS was even served by B737 of TG as well !
There is no real alternative for air travel because the roadtrip still takes about 6 hours from Chiang Mai along a narrow and winding mountain road.
ATR's are still used sometimes to bring large tour groups. ( who bring nothing to the independant tourist industry :? )
It is an example how downsizing results in an automatic system of shrinking the clientele as well.

Stij
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Re: BrusselsAirlines - the TURBOPROPS will come!

Post by Stij »

MR_Boeing wrote:Also transfer traffic is still growing very good. SN said that next to the "Star Alliance-effect" they also see more transfer pax in Europe thanks to more promotion. As exemple they gave the promotion of South-Europe in Scandinavia wich resulted in more Scandinavian pax flying trough BRU to South-Europe.
So we're finally erasing the last traces from the VEX input and become a real (small for the moment) network carrier?

Congratulations Brussels Airlines! ... And thank-you Lufthansa!

Now please merge B Light and B Flex into a LH-style Economy and give us a sandwich and a drink and we're happy!

Now to get back on topic: Maybe some Q400 would be a good idea to open new short feederroutes where there's no competition. Of course Embraer 170's would be preferred (I just love to fly the 170 and 190, but if TP are a neccesary step on the evolutionary path of a route... I wouldn't mind.'But as Regi stated above, don't downgrade...

Cheers,

Stij

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tolipanebas
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Re: BrusselsAirlines - the TURBOPROPS will come!

Post by tolipanebas »

Stij wrote: So we're finally erasing the last traces from the VEX input and become a real (small for the moment) network carrier?
Not before we get rid of those 8 shabby 737s.
Stij wrote: Now please merge B Light and B Flex into a LH-style Economy and give us a sandwich and a drink and we're happy!
I agree: come back to ONE economy class, please!

SN used to have a very much appreciated Y class, with on ground extras like full ticket flexibility and fast lane access for the more expensive booking classes, marketed as Y-flex. It was a real winner AND it got us a 4 star status, just like LH and LX, something which is completely out of reach with the retail service on board!

I've said it numerous times already: the VEX merger was a complete waste of time; they brought nothing to the table that was of any long term use to SN! Whoever decided to do this, should be eternally flamed for it as it put SN back many many years for no good whatsoever! :evil:

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sn26567
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Re: BrusselsAirlines - the TURBOPROPS will come!

Post by sn26567 »

tolipanebas wrote:
Stij wrote: So we're finally erasing the last traces from the VEX input and become a real (small for the moment) network carrier?
Not before we get rid of those 8 shabby 737s.?
I spoke once to a SN 737 pilot. He wouldn't switch to another type of plane for all the gold of the world. He said that with a 737 you can really feel the plane under your hands, contrarily to the Airbus A320 family where the fly by wire system doesn't give you a good feeling of how the plane reacts.
tolipanebas wrote:I've said it numerous times already: the VEX merger was a complete waste of time; they brought nothing to the table that was of any long term use to SN! Whoever decided to do this, should be eternally flamed for it as it put SN back many many years for no good whatsoever! :evil:
But you know like I do that this guy has left the company since many years and is not faring better elsewhere...
André
ex Sabena #26567

shockcooling
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Re: BrusselsAirlines - the TURBOPROPS will come!

Post by shockcooling »

sn26567 wrote:
tolipanebas wrote:
Stij wrote: So we're finally erasing the last traces from the VEX input and become a real (small for the moment) network carrier?
Not before we get rid of those 8 shabby 737s.?
I spoke once to a SN 737 pilot. He wouldn't switch to another type of plane for all the gold of the world. He said that with a 737 you can really feel the plane under your hands, contrarily to the Airbus A320 family where the fly by wire system doesn't give you a good feeling of how the plane reacts.
(offtopic) :lol: they wouldn't change because of their ex-vex contract, which has a higher gross salary then on Airbus ;)
In the Avro you also 'feel' the plane, funny situation here almost everybody wants to go on Airbus, including me.

I'm hearing btw some rumours about some ex Swiss 330s to join the fleet next year...

Stij
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Re: BrusselsAirlines - the TURBOPROPS will come!

Post by Stij »

tolipanebas wrote:Not before we get rid of those 8 shabby 737s.
I know, that's why I wrote in the Present Continues Tense... it's work in progress...

But it's in progress and in my humble opinion... at a good pace:

- Improving your load factor from 72,8 to 78,7 isn't bad at all!
- Expansion in Africa
- Plans to go to USA
- More 319 and 320's
- Korongo

I don't want them to overheat like Sabena either...

Cheers,

Stij

diminbru
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Re: BrusselsAirlines - the TURBOPROPS will come!

Post by diminbru »

Stij wrote:Now please merge B Light and B Flex into a LH-style Economy and give us a sandwich and a drink and we're happy!
that might only happen when and if LH will be 100% owner of SN. Although there is a rumour that LH is evaluating SN's b.light to implement within LH group. I'm not sure if this is just a rumour or for real.
tolipanebas wrote:I've said it numerous times already: the VEX merger was a complete waste of time; they brought nothing to the table that was of any long term use to SN! Whoever decided to do this, should be eternally flamed for it as it put SN back many many years for no good whatsoever! :evil:
Agree and disagree. In marketing there is a saying : 'if you can't beat them, join them'. By merging with VEX, SN was able to get rid of a competitor in Brussels. Unfortunately they also took over their aircraft and their low budget strategy resulting in b.light.
sn26567 wrote:I spoke once to a SN 737 pilot. He wouldn't switch to another type of plane for all the gold of the world. He said that with a 737 you can really feel the plane under your hands, contrarily to the Airbus A320 family where the fly by wire system doesn't give you a good feeling of how the plane reacts.
like tolipanebas said; he probably has a VEX contract. And eventually he will have to swith A/C if he wants to stay in the company. Or getting an (early) retirement.
It looks like the VEX-Boeings won't be replaced by another Boeing I guess.

sorry for being off-topic ;)


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sn26567
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Re: BrusselsAirlines - the TURBOPROPS will come!

Post by sn26567 »

See the latest Bombardier press release: viewtopic.php?f=31&t=45576

Image

Is the unknown buyer of 4 Q400s (with an option for an additionel 4) Brussels Airlines?

Edit: Hey, OO-ITR: you were a few seconds faster than me!
André
ex Sabena #26567

airazurxtror
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Re: BrusselsAirlines - the TURBOPROPS will come!

Post by airazurxtror »

tolipanebas wrote: I've said it numerous times already: the VEX merger was a complete waste of time; they brought nothing to the table that was of any long term use to SN! Whoever decided to do this, should be eternally flamed for it as it put SN back many many years for no good whatsoever! :evil:
Virgin Express had something Brussels lack and won't ever have : class, peps, glamour.
Best shown by the color schemes : striking for Virgin, dull and drab for Brussels.
And by the personality of Richard Branson against that of the Brussels CEO (who is it ?).

cnc
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Re: BrusselsAirlines - the TURBOPROPS will come!

Post by cnc »

it took away a big local competitor and gave SN 2 million pax a year so i wouldn't say the merge was bad for SN

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