Boeing 787 news

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sn26567
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Re: Boeing 787 news

Post by sn26567 »

RoMax wrote:Not to say you left it out on purpose, but it's important to tell that the NTSB said they will also look at the FAA's part in this story (after all, they are the ones who approved the tests performed by Boeing).
When I wrote that NTSB would look into the certification process, it is indeed implicit that the investigation will be aimed at FAA. One of the slides shows three pages of the (U.S.) Federal Register describing the tests on the batteries. You seem to imply that those tests were largely drafted by Boeing and insufficiently controlled by FAA.

That's probably one cause of the incidents. Looking back at Hersman's speech, I noted these sentences: "a review is needed of the 'special conditions' under which FAA approved Boeing's use of this particular battery technology on the 787. (...) This investigation has demonstrated that a short-circuit in a single cell can propagate to adjacent cells and result in smoke and fire. The assumptions used to certify the battery must be reconsidered", she said.

However, there is still no clue about what caused the the short-circuit in cell #6. Therefore, I'm not sure that the remedies proposed by Boeing will be sufficient to allow the 787 to fly again soon.

And this LOT 787 (SP-LRA) will remained blocked at Chicago O'Hare for an unspecified time (a superb picture which I cannot resist to publish): http://airteamimages.com/boeing-787-8-d ... large.html
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Re: Boeing 787 news

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sn26567 wrote:You seem to imply that those tests were largely drafted by Boeing and insufficiently controlled by FAA. That's probably one cause of the incidents.
The FAA gave Boeing a lot of freedom in the tests, because the FAA didn't have the experience in the testing of lithium-ion batteries on that scale. They felt like Boeing could do it better with the FAA just 'looking' at the results. Same for several other parts/systems/materials on the 787.

So maybe/probably this will not be the last serious problem of the 787. But after all, this is a huge learning process for Boeing, suppliers of new sytems/technologies, the FAA, NTSB (and other (investigation) aviation authorities) and even others like Airbus. A lot of the problems with the 787-8 will have been sorted out on the 787-9 and even more on the 787-10 (of which the entry into sales market is seriously delayed with no doubt with the current problems). Future aircraft will benefit enormously from the things Boeing learned from the 787. It's not that obvious as with the A380 or the 747 or the 707 or the Comet in the past, but the 787 is based on technology and used materials a HUGE step and Boeing proved to be WAY too ambitious in it (not much left anymore of the management that initiated the bad decisions) and they are learning lessons from that. It may be a long proces, but on the long term, everyone (Boeing, suppliers, airlines, aviation authorities and passengers) will benefit from the things that are being learned.

On the short term, it's a disaster for Boeing's reputation, that of the 787 and the financial situation of some airlines... When talking about the financial situation of Boeing...it's bad, their shares are dropping down, people loose confidence, they'll have to pay big fines (with a program that's already billions over budget),... But as has been said before. In theory Boeing could say "The End" to the 787-project today, and they could still survive (tough it would be a HUGE disaster for BCA: Boeing Commercial Airplanes), but of course that's not going to happen, just to underline how strong Boeing (as a whole, not looking at the 787 project alone) really is based on their financials.

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Re: Boeing 787 news

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The FAA says that it will permit Boeing to conduct test flights of 787 aircraft to gather additional battery data. These test flights will be conducted through a Special Airworthiness Certificate under several conditions: Pre-flight inspections including specific status messages; monitor in flight; inspect smoke insulation; only Boeing crews. The 787 test flights must be over unpopulated areas and must land immediately in the event of certain battery status messages.
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Re: Boeing 787 news

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They should just let the planes fly again, on condition that at all times there is a crew member in the avionics bay guarding the battery, with a bunch of fire extinguishers at hand...

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Re: Boeing 787 news

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earthman wrote:They should just let the planes fly again, on condition that at all times there is a crew member in the avionics bay guarding the battery, with a bunch of fire extinguishers at hand...
It's not just "the battery", it's about all the lithium-ion batteries. I don't know how many there are, but the ANA and JAL incidents happened on two different batteries in a different location.

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Re: Boeing 787 news

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Boeing has informed customers awaiting 787 deliveries not to expect them before the summer.
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Re: Boeing 787 news

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Boeing Tells Airlines That Dreamliner Deliveries Could Slip (Article from Bloomberg)

Feb. 8 (Bloomberg) -- Boeing Co. has told airlines awaiting delivery of the 787 Dreamliner that planes due in coming months may be late following the grounding of the existing fleet with electrical problems. “We have informed our customers expecting 787 deliveries in the near-term that those aircraft either have been or are at risk of being delayed,” the company said in e-mailed comments. “Boeing deeply regrets the impact that recent events have had on the schedules of our customers and their passengers.”

U.K. tour operator Thomson Airways said it’s arranging to use other planes to serve Florida and Mexico should its first 787 be delayed beyond March, while Norwegian Air Shuttle AS said it has been told the handover of an initial 787 in April may slide and that a second due in June may also be affected.
The 787 fleet has been grounded since Jan. 16 following a battery fire on a Japan Airlines Co. plane in Boston and a cockpit warning that spurred an emergency landing in Japan by an All Nippon Airways Co. jet. European safety officials are due to visit Boeing next week to review progress of a safety probe which U.S. regulators say could take weeks to complete.

Boeing said today it’s staying in close communication with its customers as it works to develop a plan to resume the 787 pipeline, adding that it doesn’t discuss specific deliveries.

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Re: Boeing 787 news

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The FAA has approved a 25-hour block of 787 battery and electrical testing on aircraft ZA005, one of six planes filled with measuring equipment that was used in the flight tests for the 787’s original Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) certification.

Boeing will begin to fly 787 test flights this Saturday morning (Pacific time). Ground tests were successfully completed on the jet Friday.
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cnc
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Re: Boeing 787 news

Post by cnc »

why don't they add a temperature monitoring system on the batteries for now?

letscruise
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Re: Boeing 787 news

Post by letscruise »

cnc wrote:why don't they add a temperature monitoring system on the batteries for now?
A temperature monitoring system can not prevent a thermal runaway condition as it happen on B787
lithium ion batteries

From Wikipedia :

Thermal runaway refers to a situation where an increase in temperature changes the conditions in a way that causes a further increase in temperature, often leading to a destructive result. It is a kind of uncontrolled positive feedback.

In other words, the term "thermal runaway" is used whenever a process is accelerated by increased temperature, in turn releasing energy that further increases temperature. In chemistry (and chemical engineering), this risk is associated with strongly exothermic reactions that are accelerated by temperature rise.
Rechargeable batteries can experience thermal runaway resulting in overheating. Sealed cells will sometimes explode violently if safety vents are overwhelmed or nonfunctional. Especially prone to thermal runaway are lithium-ion batteries.

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Re: Boeing 787 news

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aha thx for the info letscruise ;)

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Re: Boeing 787 news

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Meanwhile there are already two Thomson 787's waiting to start pre-delivery testing (or better, battery modifications):
http://www.flickr.com/photos/microvolt/ ... /lightbox/

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Re: Boeing 787 news

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Nice to see a second Dreamliner in TUI colours, but soon the Boeing parking lot will be too small for all the undelivered 787s. :x
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Re: Boeing 787 news

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sn26567 wrote:Nice to see a second Dreamliner in TUI colours, but soon the Boeing parking lot will be too small for all the undelivered 787s. :x
Well, it depends on how long it'll take, by the end of 2012 you really started to see the results of Boeing working through the inventory of 'older' 787's that need rework, so they created quite some space, but soon everything will be filled up again (production runs at 5/month for Paine Field and Charleston combined)...

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Re: Boeing 787 news

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The 787 test run is being operated now as flight BOE5, with aircraft ZA005 reg. N787FT. It can be followed live on flightradar24 or on flightaware: https://fr.flightaware.com/live/flight/BOE5.

Good to see a 787 where it belongs: in the air!

Photo of the take-off: http://www.flickr.com/photos/theboeingc ... 730482850/
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Re: Boeing 787 news

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ZA005 Lands After Flight Test - Feb. 9, 2013

Picture: http://www.flickr.com/photos/theboeingc ... /lightbox/

ZA005, Boeing’s fifth 787 flight test airplane, departed from Boeing Field at 12:32 p.m. Pacific time on Saturday, Feb. 9, with a crew of 13 onboard (Boeing pilots and flight test personnel). The flight lasted 2 hours and 19 minutes, landing back at Boeing Field at 2:51 p.m. Pacific time. The crew reports that the flight was uneventful.

During the flight, the crew monitored the performance of the main and APU batteries. Special equipment onboard ZA005, which is currently the only member of the Boeing 787 flight test fleet in service, allowed the crew to observe and record detailed battery performance in normal flight conditions.

Data gathered during the flight is considered part of the investigations into the 787 battery events that occurred in January. For that reason, we cannot share any additional details.

Boeing, 9 Feb 2013

Note: there were 13 people on board, including the flight crew.
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Re: Boeing 787 news

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From Reuters (comments by IAG ceo Willie Walsh):

"I am confident that Boeing will come up with a technical solution to the problems that they have identified," IAG chief Willie Walsh told an audience at an economic forum at Dublin's Trinity College university.

"I don't know how long it's going to take for them because they will have to do some redesigning of the battery system and I'd expect it to take a couple of months."

Walsh said he still considered the 787 "a fantastic aircraft" and expected IAG to take delivery at the end of May of the first of the 24 planes it has ordered: "We remain committed to the orders that we've placed with Boeing."

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Re: Boeing 787 news

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NTSB investigators are examining the JAL Boeing 787 battery that caught fire on January 7th for any ‘dendrites’ in the battery. Dendrites are tiny fibre-like deposits of lithium which can accumulate in lithium batteries, usually through uneven absorption and desorption of lithium ions, and they can penetrate the inner membranes that divide the anode and cathode. The dendrite formations, which can also be triggered by foreign-object particles on the electrode surface, introduce a physical contact between the positive and negative electrodes, thereby generating a short circuit.

Last Thursday, NTSB officials announced that the fire was triggered by short circuits (see above posts), and the examination for dendrites will be crucial to understanding the cause of the short circuits.

Yesterday (Monday) Boeing flew test aircraft ZA005 on its second FAA approved flight leaving Boeing Field at 10:17AM PST and returning at 11:47AM. The aircraft flew a short, uneventful 90 minute flight mainly over Washington State. There were 13 crew and engineers on board as well as gear to test the lithium ion batteries. Boeing say no additional test flights are planned for the time being.
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Re: Boeing 787 news

Post by tsv »

I think this story is interesting.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/petercohan/ ... sign-work/

The fact that Boeing is admitting that is has a Plan B which doesn't involve using Lithium-ion Batteries is telling. No surprise they have this plan but if they are discussing it in the Media it suggests to me they are preparing the ground for implementing it.

The consequnces of changing the Battery system are significant. Approval will take a long time, weight will increase and volume of Redesign work will be very significant.

I'm sure they will get it sorted but I would love to know how long it will take and how much it will cost them.

Cheers
Last edited by tsv on 14 Feb 2013, 12:59, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Boeing 787 news

Post by Tomskii »

Very intresting, however another delay for the Boeing 787. They state btw that it takes a year to test the equipment from Thales, once they design it. Can't they just do a software update which controls all those elements + reads the sensors which would be added.

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