Qantas grounds A380 fleet after incident over Indonesia

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regi
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Re: Qantas grounds A380 fleet after incident over Indonesia

Post by regi »

Qantas assumes it is a design fault and not related to the maintenance.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-11700401

Could be , could be. In some cases RR uses centrifugal cast rings of a large diameter instead of rings made by ring forging or free forging. There is a difference in mechanical proporties (= a forging is stronger )
Strange thing is that a casting is allowed by other gas turbine manufacturers for static engines ( energy plants, ship engines ) but not for airplanes where they would use a forging.

I would not have placed this technical issue here if Qantas would not have started "assuming".

-and somewhere a maintenance manager shouts now : "who bought that bearing in China?"- :twisted:

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sn26567
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Re: Qantas grounds A380 fleet after incident over Indonesia

Post by sn26567 »

Qantas Flight QF32 Engine Failure / Inflight turnback to Singapore

Media Information (Issue 2)


With aviation safety being of paramount importance to Airbus and following the engine failure of Qantas A380 flight QF32 on 4th November 2010 Airbus has issued an All Operators Telex asking A380 operators with Rolls-Royce engines for power plant inspections to ensure continuous safe operations of the fleet. The document supports the requirements issued previously by engine manufacturer Rolls-Royce. Operators with Engine Alliance engines are not concerned.

In line with the ICAO Annex 13 international convention, Airbus will provide full technical assistance to the French BEA as well as to the Australian authorities who will be responsible for the investigation. A team of specialists from Airbus has arrived in Singapore.

Airbus will make further information available as soon as cleared by the authorities for release.

Airbus release 5th November 2010
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sn26567
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Re: Qantas grounds A380 fleet after incident over Indonesia

Post by sn26567 »

Passengers reported that a second engine on the stricken Qantas aircraft failed to shut down once on the tarmac, sparking fears it could ignite spilling fuel from the failed engine.

Qantas chief Joyce confirmed the other engine had failed to shut down after landing but said it could have been affected in some way by the first engine mishap, which caused parts to fly off.
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earthman
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Re: Qantas grounds A380 fleet after incident over Indonesia

Post by earthman »

In some of the pictures you can see fire crews spraying 'nasty brownish stuff' into the #1 engine, I assume that is to shut it off.

Do the fire trucks at that airport double as waste water disposal trucks?

DeltaWiskey
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Re: Qantas grounds A380 fleet after incident over Indonesia

Post by DeltaWiskey »

regi wrote: I am afraid this will be a multi million dollar repair.
I'm pretty sure of that, as one engine costs 13-15 million, and at least two of them needs to be replaced.

Bralo20
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Re: Qantas grounds A380 fleet after incident over Indonesia

Post by Bralo20 »

earthman wrote:In some of the pictures you can see fire crews spraying 'nasty brownish stuff' into the #1 engine, I assume that is to shut it off.

Do the fire trucks at that airport double as waste water disposal trucks?
The "nasty brownish stuff" is actually water mixed with an (ATC / AR-AFFF) foam product, probably in a 3 to 6% mix.

ATC foams like AR-AFFF are used to extinguish so called "Class B" fires (flamable liquids) (but works also on Class A fires) and are also used to prevent flamable liquids like JET-A1 for example to ignite. When you lay a layer of foam over something that contains flamable liquids then the foam prevents the ignition of the liquids.

Depending on the type of incident a mixture is chosen, most of the fire trucks who use foam have those days a foam mixing device installed on the pump and either through a manual selection or a digital computer based setup you can chose the percentage of foam product being used. This can vary between as less 0,3% to as much as 6%. So when you use a mixture of 3% (common with AFFF) then you'll use 3 litres of foam for 100 litres of water.

The newer types of foam doesn't color and you'll get nice white foam those days. The picture of Singapore however reminds me to the older foamproducts of 3M which did indeed color brown.

So no, fire trucks aren't using disposal water ;)


While foam is rather harmless there is some side effect, AFFF causes corrossion so since they started to drown the engine with it I'm pretty sure that the nr1 engine is ruined by the foam even though they switched over to plain water afterwarts (the drowning was intended to stop the engine)

regi
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Re: Qantas grounds A380 fleet after incident over Indonesia

Post by regi »

damage control by Qantas.
I suppose that there are many lobyists sending out messages to cause as much damage at RR as possible.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/06/busin ... lobal-home

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Re: Qantas grounds A380 fleet after incident over Indonesia

Post by sdbelgium »

According to an Airworthiness Directive issued by Airbus today, the IPT (Intermediate Pressure Turbine) can move rearwards due to wear and thus come in contact with static parts of the turbine assembly... Doesn't sound very good to me. Didn't they perform a C check on this a/c in September (LH Technik)?

regi
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Re: Qantas grounds A380 fleet after incident over Indonesia

Post by regi »

sdbelgium wrote:According to an Airworthiness Directive issued by Airbus today, the IPT (Intermediate Pressure Turbine) can move rearwards due to wear and thus come in contact with static parts of the turbine assembly... Doesn't sound very good to me. Didn't they perform a C check on this a/c in September (LH Technik)?
seems to be a known design fault :shock:
http://www.channel4.com/news/airbus-eng ... ntas-scare

http://www.bnet.com/blog/airline-busine ... gines/2789

But the fact that the problem of wear is known doesn't mean it is automatically the fault of RR. If you know that wear is possible, you have to look at it. So, it is a maintenance thing.
Comparison: we all know that a wankel engine has wear on its rotor tips, resulting in compression loss and oil leakage. So live with it. Replace the worn parts.
Same with the old DAF CVT transmission. You knew that you had to replace the belt.

Desert Rat
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Re: Qantas grounds A380 fleet after incident over Indonesia

Post by Desert Rat »

To compare a Trent 900 with a DAF transmission is quite funny though...

I'm a bit surprised that the Vibration monitoring unit did not detect the engine vibration, a turbine coming into contact with the casing should produce vibrations.
And when the vibration starts to build-up and reach the advisory/alert treshold, the first crew action would be to shutdown the engine.

NimbusFlyer
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Re: Qantas grounds A380 fleet after incident over Indonesia

Post by NimbusFlyer »

earthman wrote:I'm sure BA would have flown on to Sydney if this had happened to them.
With the damage visible on the wing, any pilot would have returned, even the BA guys…

regi
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Re: Qantas grounds A380 fleet after incident over Indonesia

Post by regi »

Desert Rat wrote:To compare a Trent 900 with a DAF transmission is quite funny though...

I'm a bit surprised that the Vibration monitoring unit did not detect the engine vibration, a turbine coming into contact with the casing should produce vibrations.
And when the vibration starts to build-up and reach the advisory/alert treshold, the first crew action would be to shutdown the engine.
How much time would there be between the first contact and the disintigration ?
( the DAF remark was about known wear that has to be dealt with. The word comparison stood for the known situation. It was not a comparison between a transmission and an engine :roll: )

Desert Rat
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Re: Qantas grounds A380 fleet after incident over Indonesia

Post by Desert Rat »

Hold your horses Kuhn Regi...I appreciate your sense of humour...;=)))...

You are right when you mention that there's a difference between a slow degradation and a sudden fatal failure of a bearing...investigation will tell us.

regi
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Re: Qantas grounds A380 fleet after incident over Indonesia

Post by regi »

by the way: Singapore Airlines grounds all flights to Jakarta because of the vulcano. Oh.
http://www.singaporeair.com/saa/Util/sh ... sp?msgId=2

No word that this only counts for airplanes with RR engines only. :P

Bralo20
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Re: Qantas grounds A380 fleet after incident over Indonesia

Post by Bralo20 »

FYI

While checking the engines of their A380's Qantas has found 2 engines on 2 separate airplanes (1 in Sydney and 1 in Los Angeles) with "issues" that are considered serious enough to warant the installation of a new engine. Qantas is further checking the other engines to see if additional probles are found.

Currently their A380's are located in:

Singapore: 1 with damaged engine
Sydney: 1 with problems found in 1 engine, replacement needed
Los Angeles: 3, 1 (at the moment) with problems found in 1 engine, replacement needed
Frankfurt: 1 undergoing a C check at LH Technik.

andorra-airport
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Re: Qantas grounds A380 fleet after incident over Indonesia

Post by andorra-airport »

Captain Richard de Crespigny has been caught in a second Qantas emergency - a day after he saved 466 lives by safely landing his stricken jet.

Crespigny was a passenger on flight QF6 on Friday when flames burst from an engine shortly after take-off from Singapore's Changi airport, forcing the Boeing 747-400 jumbo to turn back. He and 19 other crew were on QF6, attempting to return home to their families.

Anxious wife Coral de Crespigny had no idea of the second drama until her husband rang on Friday night and announced calmly: "There's been a delay, I've landed again and I'm going back to the hotel."

"I'm still looking at the (whole) situation, going Holy cow, how did he get out of that?"

news.com.au

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CX
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Re: Qantas grounds A380 fleet after incident over Indonesia

Post by CX »

If this is really a design problem, RR better change the design or who's going to ever fly on a A350 with just two of these?
With QF's maintenance, i don't really get it. I have always thought it's just a national pride thing that the local Australians criticise Qantas for outsourcing maintenance work... i mean, don't SIA use the same maintenance? SIA is problem free.

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Re: Qantas grounds A380 fleet after incident over Indonesia

Post by Desert Rat »

It could be a problem of internal fire at the level of the drive shafts,linked to an internal oil leak, the internal fire would soften the disks and would create the fatal rupture....Apparently RR issued some ISB's to check the drive shafts.

regi
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Re: Qantas grounds A380 fleet after incident over Indonesia

Post by regi »

Desert Rat wrote:It could be a problem of internal fire at the level of the drive shafts,linked to an internal oil leak, the internal fire would soften the disks and would create the fatal rupture....Apparently RR issued some ISB's to check the drive shafts.
Yes, an oil leak comes now in the picture. Some years ago I mentioned already how saving pennies on cheap seals have caused major disasters.
It doesn't mean that the seal itself was bad. But the design of the entire sealing system ( combined with different pressures, aggresive hydraulic fluids, temperature differences etcetera ) has brought down thousands of airplanes ( some military aircraft had a higher rate of crashes by engine problems than by enemy fire...)
Best example of a bad seal design is the Challenger disaster.

But this is just a bit background information.
We will see within some months or what.

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earthman
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Re: Qantas grounds A380 fleet after incident over Indonesia

Post by earthman »

regi wrote: Best example of a bad seal design is the Challenger disaster.
I disagree. The specific problem with the Challenger was that the launch took place outside the specified temperature tolerances for the seal, and that the engineers were unsuccessful in communicating the seriousness of the situation to management. The seal was 'good', it was just being used under improper circumstances. It did not fail under normal operating conditions. The problem with bad seals is that they do fail unexpectedly under normal conditions.

If I recall correctly, the larger issue apparently was that due to political bullshit the SRBs were manufactured in two parts in two different locations, and without this nonsense there would have been no seal at all.

If you want bad seal disasters, apparently the Deepwater Horizon had bad cement seals...

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