Belgian Defence could share its A330 with Brussels Airlines

[sn26567]

The Belgian Defence and Brussels Airlines are negotiating an agreement to allow b.air to sub-rent the Airbus A330 used by the army when it is not in duty for the Army.

There was an agreement of mutual assistance in the past between Sabena and the Belgian Air Force, but it expired when Sabena went bankrupt in November 2001. Since then Brussels Airlines tried to renew a similar agreement.

Brussels Airlines has already used tha military Airbus A330 to repatriate passengers blocked in Senegal during the suspension of flights in Europe caused by icelandic vulcano Eyjafjöll.

If the deal goes through, Brussels Airlines should sign a contract with the operator of the A330, Portuguese company Hi Fly, and its agent, French company Avico. The military Airbus is a former Sabena aircraft and is very similar to the ones used by Brussels Airlines.

However "Belgian Air Force One" would be flown by a civilian crew, says Brussels Airlines.

[Shanti]

That seems to be a very good idea.

[regi]

tricky question: can another airline claim the use of that Belgian Airforce A330 , or go to court if such a contract would be made ?
The BAF still is a public service, and has to obey to European regulations. Can a specialist in this matter clarify please ?

[tolipanebas]

If they do, I hope they pull off the Belgian Air Force titles, as this might scare off some pax...

Crembo will obviously not like it, but something a bit more sober would be far more suitable for sure.

[tolipanebas]

Can another airline claim the use of that Belgian Airforce A330 , or go to court if such a contract would be made? The BAF still is a public service, and has to obey to European regulations. Can a specialist in this matter clarify please ?

Mind you, SN is not looking to subrent this plane from the BAF, but would rather rent it straight from its Portuguese owner, which already rents out the plane to the BAF.

Whereas it is fairly uncommon to have 2 users of the same plane, it is entirely legal and has been done in the past already: all that is needed is an agreement between the 2 users (in this case BAF and SN) to figure out how they are going to 'time share' on this plane. That's all, nothing tricky or unfair about at all, and no, another Belgian airline can not go to court over that issue.

I think it is a good move for both partners though, as it would allow SN to slightly increase utilisation levels of their own planes, without reducing the redundancy currently enjoyed from not using all planes on all of the days of the week.
For the BAF, their might be a lower leasing rate in it, as they no longer need to pay the entire leasing cost for the plane. Definitely a welcome budget cut.

[regi]

Can another airline claim the use of that Belgian Airforce A330 , or go to court if such a contract would be made? The BAF still is a public service, and has to obey to European regulations. Can a specialist in this matter clarify please ?

Mind you, SN is not looking to subrent this plane from the BAF, but would rather rent it straight from its Portuguese owner, which already rents out the plane to the BAF.

Whereas it is fairly uncommon to have 2 users of the same plane, it is entirely legal and has been done in the past already: all that is needed is an agreement between the 2 users (in this case BAF and SN) to figure out how they are going to 'time share' on this plane. That's all, nothing tricky or unfair about at all, and no, another Belgian airline can not go to court over that issue.

I think it is a good move for both partners though, as it would allow SN to slightly increase utilisation levels of their own planes, without reducing the redundancy currently enjoyed from not using all planes on all of the days of the week.
For the BAF, their might be a lower leasing rate in it, as they no longer need to pay the entire leasing cost for the plane. Definitely a welcome budget cut.

Tolipanebas, thank you for this swift and simple explanation, which is indeed according regulations between private companies.
So no worries from that side.
Well, it is time to save pennies, and as you said, if the BAF can save some euro in this way, why not?

[sdbelgium]

http://www.flightlevel.be/3138/brussels ... lease-a330

They are looking for a short term lease in September, to make up for some maintenance in their own fleet. Negotiations are indeed direct with HiFly, not through the Belgian Defense. Crew would be HiFly( SN crew would need retraining, strange enough).

[Thomas_C]

Good idea but isn't the cabin outdated? (no new business seats)

[tolipanebas]

isn't the cabin outdated?

We're talking about a spare plane only. If they wetlease a replacement plane from another company (for instance EuroAtlantic), it doesn't come with the right cabin configuration either.

Remember, this used to be OO-SFX at Sabena, so the BAF A330 is about as close as you can come to SN's cabin configuration, without being in one.

Does anybody have interior cabin pictures of the BAF A330?

Another point: the BAF has been using more than one A330 from HIFly in the past, so how sure is it we're actually talking about CS-TMT here? Is this fact confirmed or just assumed? And what's the deal with the other A330s the BAF has been using then?

[NCB]

Sorry to disappoint you but this is a temporary solution for the yearly C checks. It's cheaper this way than to have to ACMI an aircraft to cover the period aircraft are in base maintenance and Hifly also have interest in cooperating as they make more money out of it as aircraft and crew are already based in BRU. From there to say that it's SN's 6th (or 5,5th) A330 is a big jump, no one knows if this is meant to become permanent.
But I doubt so, SN can't realistically share an ACMI aircraft on time share with BAF to use it as permanent back-up, it would be more expensive than adding a more recent and higher rate 6th aircraft.

If SN finds a 6th A330 on the market and the BAF charters it on request, as Tolipanebas points out, it would be a brilliant cooperation but this is not what is being discussed here.

[Frederik Peeters]

It won't be possible for SN to use BAF's A330 regularly. Because of the constant rotations of our troops abroud. You also have to think that this one plane replaces 2 other A310's. So the 330 is much more in use these day's.

And what would happen when the plane is in africa for SN and there comes out a very urgent military operation?

[Thomas_C]

BAF asks SN to cancel a flight to get an SN plane, maybe the whole idea is a vicious cirle?

[regi]

It won't be possible for SN to use BAF's A330 regularly. Because of the constant rotations of our troops abroud. You also have to think that this one plane replaces 2 other A310's. So the 330 is much more in use these day's.

And what would happen when the plane is in africa for SN and there comes out a very urgent military operation?

Recent example: a Belgian soldier had to evac asap from Afghanistan and he was brought home by the German AF under NATO umbrella.
The Belgian military international operations are under NATO or UN flag and can there for easely rely on partners.
Few exceptions maybe, for example Benin ( are they still active there ? ) , para training abroad under national umbrella, ....but in these cases a C-130 will do fine.
Exception: if Belgium would decide to do a unilateral evacuation . But the last ones from Ruanda and Zaire were already with French help. And the question is if they would be able/willing to use a A330 on a bad landing strip somewhere in a combat zone.
One thing is sure, they won't charter a cheap Yak-42 to transport troopes.
http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/20030 ... 7250.shtml

[RoMax]

Exception: if Belgium would decide to do a unilateral evacuation . But the last ones from Ruanda and Zaire were already with French help. And the question is if they would be able/willing to use a A330 on a bad landing strip somewhere in a combat zone.

If they would need an big transport aircraft at a time SN is using it in September. BAF have to lease another one. It wouldn't be the first time they lease another aircraft when they don't have their A330 available.

[Bralo20]

If they would need an big transport aircraft at a time SN is using it in September. BAF have to lease another one. It wouldn't be the first time they lease another aircraft when they don't have their A330 available.

There is always a second A330 or A340 on standby for the BAF, sometimes they are even flying both at the same time.

[tolipanebas]

They also have 1 A310 available still, as only 1 of the 2 is currently stored, so it's not like they only have 1 plane available to them, in fact they have mainy alternatives; on top of that, they also charter a second A310 from time to time (one with a red tail, old Oman Air colours I think).

How many times is that A330 actually flying?
I see it standing in BRU at least 5 days per week so it's not like it is heavily used by the BAF...