Brussels Airlines' fleet renewal

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Air Key West
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Re: Replacement of SN's Avro RJ and B737 fleet

Post by Air Key West » 26 Jul 2010, 13:35

I should refrain from reacting to such an unrealistic post, but I cannot.
NCB, your write : "Pilots, mechanics and perhaps some customers would not be very happy with the turboprop aspect, but the airline would thrive." No, the airline would not thrive, because passengers would opt for the competition that flies jet aircraft instead. Nobody wants to be on a propeller aircraft for more than an hour (or at the very most an hour and a half block time), except you perhaps, NCB, because you have never been on a propeller aircraft on a longer flight and only make suggestions on the basis of theories you find in books or on the internet. I have flown the Q400 on a one-and-a-half-hour-flight and was very eager to get off. It's not a comfortable plane in spite of what the manufacturer and the airlines who bought the aircrat would like us to believe.
And sorry, you really have no sense of reality if you suggest to fly to Vilnius, Moscow or Lisbon on a Q400NG. :roll:
In favor of quality air travel.

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tolipanebas
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Re: Replacement of SN's Avro RJ and B737 fleet

Post by tolipanebas » 26 Jul 2010, 13:40

Air Key West wrote:you really have no sense of reality if you suggest to fly to Vilnius, Moscow or Lisbon on a Q400NG. :roll:
At least he's consistent: Q400s to DME and A320s to FIH and beyond! :mrgreen:

On both accounts, he's sending too slow, too small planes, way too far to still make any commercial sense...

Seems like price elasticity of demand is a complete non-issue then! :roll:
Last edited by tolipanebas on 26 Jul 2010, 13:52, edited 2 times in total.

Air Key West
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Re: Replacement of SN's Avro RJ and B737 fleet

Post by Air Key West » 26 Jul 2010, 13:49

@NCB : you cannot compare Flybe and SN. Flybe is a low-cost regional airline with Q400s flying shorter routes and EMB195s operating the longer high density routes.
In favor of quality air travel.

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tolipanebas
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Re: Replacement of SN's Avro RJ and B737 fleet

Post by tolipanebas » 26 Jul 2010, 16:05

BTW- flyBE has just ordered a huge number of E175s with the aim to deploy them on thinner routes where the Q400s are not ideal (meaning: too long or with serious competition from other airlines), so they must be completely crazy then to deviate from a perfectly good plan praised here by some as an example SN should just copy? :roll:

cnc
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Re: Replacement of SN's Avro RJ and B737 fleet

Post by cnc » 26 Jul 2010, 17:18

Air Key West wrote:Nobody wants to be on a propeller aircraft for more than an hour (or at the very most an hour and a half block time), except you perhaps, NCB, because you have never been on a propeller aircraft on a longer flight and only make suggestions on the basis of theories you find in books or on the internet. I have flown the Q400 on a one-and-a-half-hour-flight and was very eager to get off. It's not a comfortable plane in spite of what the manufacturer and the airlines who bought the aircrat would like us to believe.
if i ask people who went on holiday with what aircraft they've flown they don't know, they don't even know if its a jet or a prop and to be honest these days a jet isn't that much comfortable either for economy pax.
lol even my mom that flew from CPH to OSL with an ATR didn't knew she was flying a prop

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cathay belgium
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Re: Replacement of SN's Avro RJ and B737 fleet

Post by cathay belgium » 26 Jul 2010, 17:25

Hi,
Air Key West wrote:I have flown the Q400 on a one-and-a-half-hour-flight and was very eager to get off. It's not a comfortable plane in spite of what the manufacturer and the airlines who bought the aircrat would like us to believe.
:oops:

Damn,just got a confirmation that may BRU-RIX flight was rescheduled from B737 to Dash8
+ 20min longer flighttime ! :roll:

Better book an extra hospital assurance ? :?:

But it's already said besides 'fans/geeks' like us a lot of other not frequent flyers don't kn ow what/which plane
there on ... ( a lot of them even don't know the carrier 5min after they got of the plane ..
.. and also some other frequent but not daily flyers ... )

CX-B
New types flown : A223,AN24,AW139,B737MAX8,B763nonER,DH Dragonrapide,EMB110 Bandeirante, Shorts360,Autogire MTOsport2010

134flyer
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Re: Replacement of SN's Avro RJ and B737 fleet

Post by 134flyer » 26 Jul 2010, 19:10

cnc wrote:if i ask people who went on holiday with what aircraft they've flown they don't know, they don't even know if its a jet or a prop and to be honest these days a jet isn't that much comfortable either for economy pax.
Maybe true for people who go once or twice a year on holiday, who mostly aren't airline loyal anyway and will go for the lowest price. High yield business pax is another thing though. And even if they don't know what aircraft they flew on, they sure as hell will say that this cramped little aircraft they flew on was way more uncomfortable than 'that nice big one' they flew before (like my mom, who doesn't know anything about aircraft, after she flew on a CRJ200).

I myself was once on a two and a half hour Q400 flight (ARN-BRU), and after already one hour I just wanted to get out NOW, but still had to continue for another hour and a half... On 1 hour flights, turboprops are fine, or at least tolerable.

NCB

Re: Replacement of SN's Avro RJ and B737 fleet

Post by NCB » 26 Jul 2010, 19:43

Air Key West wrote:I should refrain from reacting to such an unrealistic post, but I cannot.
NCB, your write : "Pilots, mechanics and perhaps some customers would not be very happy with the turboprop aspect, but the airline would thrive." No, the airline would not thrive, because passengers would opt for the competition that flies jet aircraft instead. Nobody wants to be on a propeller aircraft for more than an hour (or at the very most an hour and a half block time), except you perhaps, NCB, because you have never been on a propeller aircraft on a longer flight and only make suggestions on the basis of theories you find in books or on the internet. I have flown the Q400 on a one-and-a-half-hour-flight and was very eager to get off. It's not a comfortable plane in spite of what the manufacturer and the airlines who bought the aircrat would like us to believe.
And sorry, you really have no sense of reality if you suggest to fly to Vilnius, Moscow or Lisbon on a Q400NG. :roll:
The Q400 isn't less comfortable than E-jets and CRJ's.
It's quieter and roomier and cheaper to operate. My best flight so far has been on a LH Regional Q400.
In terms of comfort, they are better than the E-Jets. They feel roomier by design.

My best flight so far has been on LH Regional Q400. Unlike my previous figures, the Q400 beats the E170 by over 20% and the E190 by over 15% on CASM. The CASM is about the same as B737-800 if you factor in the lower landing fees. The E-Jets are no competition to B737-800 or the Q400 in terms of CASM.
It's like comparing an Avro RJ to the E-jets.

I have nothing to be taught by a guy who wants ATR42/ATR72/E170/E175/E190/E195/A318 in SN's fleet nor the lunatics who follow his lead. Moscow is an A319 flight, so I don't know why mention it (I was talking range, but suddenly I wanted SN to operate the flight??).

As much as your mind is screwed up, the E170/190 combo are not profitable to run within SN's operations on the long flights in the winter, when only occupied by 40 passengers. SN shall not lose money for the passenger's comfort, instead it shall focus back on frequency, service and price.

SN would be better off letting those routes to LCC's and look for new thin routes to places like Strasbourg and many Flybe focus cities for that matter.

Comfort is one thing but an airline first looks at CASM and efficiency. We're on the eve of emissions trading in Europe. You are wrong to dismiss the Q400.

By the way, the SN Avro RJ's operate at around 780km/h compared to 620km/h of the Q400. 160km/h, big deal. Also, if you understood what I wrote, you shall have realised that I wrote some about lower yields. Price is what matters most to today's customers, not propellers/fans.

I know SN won't get the Q400's in such large numbers but that is what I would do, given that the MRJ is not being given its due value. E-Jets are half a generation behind the Sukhoi Superjet and a full generation behind the MRJ. In 10 years it would be what the Avro RJ is to us today: an expensive aircraft everyone wants to get rid of.

The Q400 instead can hold very well, especially if combined with Q400X.

Flybe operates the Q400 all the way to Malaga, some flights edge on the 3 hours.
But they must be really ridiculous and stupid to do that... that's why they are a miserable airlin unlike SN...
Those Embraer's they added? Expansion plans, aircraft bought at dump prices as I said before: Embraer was desperate to sell off its production line for 2010/2011.

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/20 ... braer.html

I don't expect SN to go for a large Q400 fleet but that is what I would do on the eve of emissions trading...

134flyer
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Re: Replacement of SN's Avro RJ and B737 fleet

Post by 134flyer » 26 Jul 2010, 20:02

NCB wrote:Comfort is one thing but an airline first looks at CASM and efficiency. We're on the eve of emissions trading in Europe.

Also, if you understood what I wrote, you shall have realised that I wrote some about lower yields. Price is what matters most to today's customers
Hmmm, and who wanted to put First Class seats on intra-euro flights again, thinking business pax would actually pay the higher price for it?

Air Key West
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Re: Replacement of SN's Avro RJ and B737 fleet

Post by Air Key West » 26 Jul 2010, 21:16

Hi Guys ! I haven't fallen asleep or haven't disappeared. I just think it's pointless to react to someone who does not take part in a discussion, but states that we are all stupid, including all airline managers except Flybe's, and that he's a flawless genious.
Let's go back to our discussion forum.
In favor of quality air travel.

134flyer
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Re: Replacement of SN's Avro RJ and B737 fleet

Post by 134flyer » 26 Jul 2010, 21:32

Air Key West wrote:I just think it's pointless to react to someone who does not take part in a discussion, but states that we are all stupid, including all airline managers except Flybe's, and that he's a flawless genious.Let's go back to our discussion forum.
Yes, you are absolutely right! But to quote yourself, it is sometimes very hard to just ignore an not react...
Air Key West wrote:I should refrain from reacting to such an unrealistic post, but I cannot.
But indeed let's get back on topic!

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RoMax
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Re: Replacement of SN's Avro RJ and B737 fleet

Post by RoMax » 26 Jul 2010, 22:28

I aggree that I should not react on these kind of things, but it's to hard to ignore it.

The diameter of the cabin of the Q400 is much smaller than on the E-jets while they have the same 2-2 configuration. What do you think is the most comfortable, NCB?

Some have said it before, flying a Q400 for max 1 hour: fine, especially if it's a new aircraft. But after a 45min flight on a brand new Q400, I tought: well that was a nice flight, but thankfully it was not longer. I think I would not be happy to sit on that plane for 1.5/2 hours.

I'm very curious about SN's comming orders for new aircraft, probably this: 30 Q400's, 20 Q400X (and 30 A319's to operate AFI). Prepare for a nice fleet, Q400's operating Europe and A319's to AFI and of course all equiped with First Class and a very luxery business class. :roll:
Sorry, I had to say this. :mrgreen:

So now lets talk again about a serious RJ/737 replacement.

Air Key West
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Re: Replacement of SN's Avro RJ and B737 fleet

Post by Air Key West » 26 Jul 2010, 23:02

Guys, do you think a combination of MRJs (to replace the Avrojets) and C Series (to replace the A319/B737) would stand a chance or would be an acceptable or even good idea ?. I will agree with NCB on one point : on "paper" (for me that's internet) the MRJs look very promising as do the C Series (also on "paper"). SN would have two new-generation aircraft (with perhaps a small number of Q400s for very short flights on thin routes),aircraft which claim to be the most fuel-efficient. What do you think ?
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brusselsairlinesfan
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Re: Replacement of SN's Avro RJ and B737 fleet

Post by brusselsairlinesfan » 26 Jul 2010, 23:07

When are they (SN) supposed to reveal the Avro RJ & Boeing 737 fleet renewal?

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RoMax
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Re: Replacement of SN's Avro RJ and B737 fleet

Post by RoMax » 26 Jul 2010, 23:10

brusselsairlinesfan wrote:When are they (SN) supposed to reveal the Avro RJ & Boeing 737 fleet renewal?
The RJ replacement order would be placed end 2010 or early 2011 they said past summer.

Air Key West
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Re: Replacement of SN's Avro RJ and B737 fleet

Post by Air Key West » 26 Jul 2010, 23:15

If they said the orders would be announced at the end of 2010 or the beginning of 2011, my feeling is they will let LH make the decision when (if) they take over SN in 2011. Probably nobody knows, but do you think they will buy or lease the new aircraft ?
In favor of quality air travel.

134flyer
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Re: Replacement of SN's Avro RJ and B737 fleet

Post by 134flyer » 26 Jul 2010, 23:16

MR_Boeing wrote:
brusselsairlinesfan wrote:When are they (SN) supposed to reveal the Avro RJ & Boeing 737 fleet renewal?
The RJ replacement order would be placed end 2010 or early 2011 they said past summer.
Earlier this year Gustin said in an interview that SN will hopefully (internally) have made up their mind by the end of this year, and that they then can start to negotiate with the suppliers early 2011

Air Key West
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Re: Replacement of SN's Avro RJ and B737 fleet

Post by Air Key West » 26 Jul 2010, 23:21

Thanks for the info. I presume we can assume that LH will have a say in the decision and will take part in the negotiations, or does b.air intend to make the decision alone ? That would be strange, a few months before the likely LH take-over.
In favor of quality air travel.

TUB023

Re: Replacement of SN's Avro RJ and B737 fleet

Post by TUB023 » 26 Jul 2010, 23:22

they already made up their mind. they (the big guys) already know what the replacement is

134flyer
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Re: Replacement of SN's Avro RJ and B737 fleet

Post by 134flyer » 26 Jul 2010, 23:39

Air Key West wrote:Guys, do you think a combination of MRJs (to replace the Avrojets) and C Series (to replace the A319/B737) would stand a chance or would be an acceptable or even good idea ?. I will agree with NCB on one point : on "paper" (for me that's internet) the MRJs look very promising as do the C Series (also on "paper"). SN would have two new-generation aircraft (with perhaps a small number of Q400s for very short flights on thin routes),aircraft which claim to be the most fuel-efficient. What do you think ?
If I don't take into account that the leases will expire on the Avrojets shortly, then efficiency wise etc, both the MRJ & the CSeries are very promising. However, to see both the MRJ's & the CSeries in a future SN fleet...

I would rather dare to say that if SN would choose the CSeries, the CS100 will be the smallest aircraft in the SN fleet as they will anticipate for higher load factors (more aggresive on the intra Euro market & increases AFI feed). See the OS scenario as explained by others here. If neccessary some routes can be operated with some (turboprop) wet-leases like some BD operated flights & the HAJ flights. Apart from the CS100, the 'Euro' fleet will consist of A319/320's.

An alternative might still be an E170/195 fleet (+ A319/320's), especially if they need the aircraft ASAP.

But I still think they should go for growth, so i.e.the CS100 with it's lower CASM. Furthermore, Gustin mentions the CSeries quite often in interviews, and quickly adds 'but no decision has been taken!!'

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