Brussels Airlines' fleet renewal

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Bralo20
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Re: Brussels Airlines' fleet renewal

Post by Bralo20 »

Homo Aeroportus wrote:I know of two VC-25s that are older than that, and apparently the Boss of the World Company find these reliable enough to continue flying with them... ;)

H.A.
I don't think you can compare the 2 VC-25's with any other plane in the world, even when those retire in a couple of years they'll be virtually brand new even though they'll be arround 30 years old.

:-)

Bralo20
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Re: Brussels Airlines' fleet renewal

Post by Bralo20 »

CTBke wrote:you're right guys but instead of investing in new engines which costs fortunes they better loon out for replacement aircrafts hopefully Lufthansa and SN look forward to calculate newer A330 before it's too late.. the airframes are 20 years old like said so time to look on the A330 or maybe A340 market, Emirates is about to sell their -300
Exactly. We all know that the A330 fleet has much newer or overhauled engines then the ones that were delivered with the planes in 1993. I would be terrified if it were still the original engines without being overhauled but then the plane wouldn't even be airworthy :D

20+ years may not be that old (Hell, Delta flew with 40+ year old DC-9's until recently and Buffalo Airways even operates a scheduled DC-3 passenger flight) but it's starting to become "old". Older frames are costing more money compared to newer frames... Yes, the leasing may be cheap(er) but at one point it will become more expensive to operate an older frame compared to a newer one despite cheaper leasing / insurance costs. And at 20+ years that point has passed or is coming soon...

So it may be time to slowely looking for new(er) frames...

On the other hand... Maybe they are waiting until SN is 100% owned by LH to order factory new planes...

Homo Aeroportus
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Re: Brussels Airlines' fleet renewal

Post by Homo Aeroportus »

Just teasing Bralo20 ;)

Of course AF1 is "brand new" every time it takes off, but this is similar to any airliner undergoing normal maintenance. Even after a D-check, an old timer is "as good as".
The only bumper for the airframe is cycles and hours but more importantly, as you rightfully wrote in your post above, keeping it flying for ever is possible but becomes more and more questionable from an economic standpoint.
Removing the DC-9s from the fleet was probably more due to the fuel inefficiency of their JT8Ds.

So yes new aircraft are welcome but only at the condition that they will be cheaper to run than the "old" ones.
Oh yes, and if you have the money to buy/lease them ...

H.A.

SFM
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Re: Brussels Airlines' fleet renewal

Post by SFM »

OO-SSI now performing first revenue flight for SN to HAM.

Stij
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Re: Brussels Airlines' fleet renewal

Post by Stij »

Probably a very stupid question:
A340's aren't popular because of fuel burn and because of ETOPS.
A330 are extremely popular for the opposite.
Basically they re the same airframe...
Cant airbus rebuild them?

Cheers,

Stij

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cathay belgium
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Re: Brussels Airlines' fleet renewal

Post by cathay belgium »

Hi,

They just tried ! A350 !
I tought with the intro of A350, the A340/330 should be history...
A350-800-900-1000?
CXB
New types flown 2021 .. //

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Treeper
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Re: Brussels Airlines' fleet renewal

Post by Treeper »

cathay belgium wrote:Hi,

They just tried ! A350 !
I tought with the intro of A350, the A340/330 should be history...
A350-800-900-1000?
CXB
I think what Stij meant was to rebuild A340's to A330's. Or am I the one that's missed the ball?

crew1990
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Re: Brussels Airlines' fleet renewal

Post by crew1990 »

Treeper wrote:
cathay belgium wrote:Hi,

They just tried ! A350 !
I tought with the intro of A350, the A340/330 should be history...
A350-800-900-1000?
CXB
I think what Stij meant was to rebuild A340's to A330's. Or am I the one that's missed the ball?
This is what I understood as well.

About the A350 I hope the crew rest area is not optional like of the A330 A340 which is just a bunk.

Stij
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Re: Brussels Airlines' fleet renewal

Post by Stij »

Treeper wrote:
cathay belgium wrote:Hi,

They just tried ! A350 !
I tought with the intro of A350, the A340/330 should be history...
A350-800-900-1000?
CXB
I think what Stij meant was to rebuild A340's to A330's. Or am I the one that's missed the ball?
Nope, you're absolutely right!

But probably to costly...

Cheers,

Stij

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RoMax
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Re: Brussels Airlines' fleet renewal

Post by RoMax »

Stij wrote: Nope, you're absolutely right!

But probably to costly...
Yes definitely too costly, not just the work to make an A330 out of an A340, but also to certify it. And I don't think anyone is asking for it either, you always hear people talking about the high demand for A330's, but actually Airbus has to downgrade A330 production before the A330neo enters production, as they are not able to sell enough of them anymore (and you can be assured that they give huge discounts for classic A330's in the years before the transition to the neo, as they really wanted to keep the same production level).
cathay belgium wrote: I tought with the intro of A350, the A340/330 should be history...
A350-800-900-1000?
That was the idea, but now we have the two new A330 versions (the -800neo and -900neo) and the A350-800 is as good as dead with just 16 orders remaining (8 each for Asiana and Aeroflot)
Last edited by RoMax on 28 Mar 2015, 12:00, edited 1 time in total.

Bralo20
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Re: Brussels Airlines' fleet renewal

Post by Bralo20 »

Stij wrote:Probably a very stupid question:
A340's aren't popular because of fuel burn and because of ETOPS.
A330 are extremely popular for the opposite.
Basically they re the same airframe...
Cant airbus rebuild them?

Cheers,

Stij
Pure technical it is probably possible to rebuild an existing A340 into an A330 but at what cost? Only the -200 and the -300 have the same fuselage and wing in both series but I'm not sure if an A340 wing can be rebuild into an A330 wing. By being unable to rebuild the -500 and -600 you'll leave the youngest frames behind. Worst case you'll need 2 new wings and then there's all the rest to do... And after it's technically rebuild then there's the hurdle of all the paperwork.

Technically? Yes
Economically: Not so much

OO-ITR
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Re: Brussels Airlines' fleet renewal

Post by OO-ITR »

Can anyone tell me what the last posts have to do with the topic? Moderators, can it be moved into another topic?
Thanks

Flyer777
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Re: Brussels Airlines' fleet renewal

Post by Flyer777 »

Please stay on topic guys:
Summary: Fleet renewal is not going to happen at Brussels Airlines.
Reason: No money ! Not even for leasings.
The actual A330 leasings , are the cheapest 330 leasings in the world, the fuel coast is very low and still SN is not capable of making any profit.

Flyer777
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Re: Abnormalities in BRU-ANR-CRL-LGG-OST in 2015

Post by Flyer777 »

SN can be proud to be operating the oldest "still flying" 330 in the world (SFM). (according to serial number at airframes.org) But rumours are that airbus intends to "call back the bird" for evaluation purposes. Airbus seems to be concerned about corrosion issues, since no other 330 stayed on duty that long ever before...

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sn26567
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Re: Brussels Airlines' fleet renewal

Post by sn26567 »

OO-ITR wrote:Can anyone tell me what the last posts have to do with the topic? Moderators, can it be moved into another topic?
Thanks
No need to move the posts: someone was asking whether SN could buy a cheap A340 and modify it into a more efficient A330. Questions answered, issue closed!
André
ex Sabena #26567

SFM
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Re: Abnormalities in BRU-ANR-CRL-LGG-OST in 2015

Post by SFM »

Flyer777 wrote:SN can be proud to be operating the oldest "still flying" 330 in the world (SFM). (according to serial number at airframes.org) But rumours are that airbus intends to "call back the bird" for evaluation purposes. Airbus seems to be concerned about corrosion issues, since no other 330 stayed on duty that long ever before...
According to airfleets.net, SFM is the third oldest A330, behind the two test aircraft. These two are now flying for Dragonair.
http://www.airfleets.net/listing/a330-1.htm

But I have also heard the rumour that Airbus would be interested in getting SFM back.

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lumumba
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Re: Brussels Airlines' fleet renewal

Post by lumumba »

I see on the list that there are a lot of A330 that are stored so why is it so difficult to get one?
Hasta la victoria siempre.

SFM
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Re: Brussels Airlines' fleet renewal

Post by SFM »

lumumba wrote:I see on the list that there are a lot of A330 that are stored so why is it so difficult to get one?
Most of the A330 listed as 'stored' are on the first 4 pages of the production list on that website, i.e. up till about MSN400. These are old airframes (built in the 90s) and are therefore not worth the trouble of getting them refurbished. I'm sure that if SN management is looking for 330's, they'll be looking for airframes that are max. about 12 years old (like SFU at that time). Otherwise, you only have a short-term solution and after say 3-4 years you need to look for another replacement.

OO-ITR
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Re: Brussels Airlines' fleet renewal

Post by OO-ITR »

sn26567 wrote:
OO-ITR wrote:Can anyone tell me what the last posts have to do with the topic? Moderators, can it be moved into another topic?
Thanks
No need to move the posts: someone was asking whether SN could buy a cheap A340 and modify it into a more efficient A330. Questions answered, issue closed!
I don't know where exactly in this post it is stated that SN is looking for A340s (I know sometimes one needs to read between the lines but in this case it is a real search... :o
Stij wrote:Probably a very stupid question:
A340's aren't popular because of fuel burn and because of ETOPS.
A330 are extremely popular for the opposite.
Basically they re the same airframe...
Cant airbus rebuild them?

Cheers,

Stij
The following posts are all about the decision Airbus needs to take. Nothing about SN...
so no, my answer still remains unanswered!

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RoMax
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Re: Brussels Airlines' fleet renewal

Post by RoMax »

Besides the fact that I think too much time is spent on this discussion, Stij implied with his post that if SN is looking for A330's but can't find them, if they could 'rebuild' A340's. Answer is quite clear: no (too costly and not that Airbus is going to spend time and money on it, especially as they can't even sell out the remaining classic A330's at level production before the A330neo starts to come at a reasonable level of production). So the answer on Stij's question is quite clear and obvious, but yes in some way it was related to SN.

But to come back to the actual discussion, I don't know if SN is already looking for a replacement of the oldest A330's (I assume they are planning it by the time they come to the end of their current leasing contracts), but for sure these will be other A330's and not A340's (same for expansion). More and more A330's will be released on the market (though for now most of them are probably -200's) with more and more 787's (already about 250 in service) and A350's entering into service and in a few years time the A330neo.

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