Brussels Airlines' fleet renewal

[NCB]

On the net, I found this:


The airline industry is always in competition and the frequent travellers want the best for there money. If AF decides to abolish BC as most of the frequent travellers in Europe think it is not worth the money paying for, so it is only the right choice. I as a frequent traveller and customer expect the best for my money as I am willing to pay the price which is tag on it. So it is only fair to expect a decent BC seat, food/beverage and service. I now that with my next comment some of you will be rolling their eyes but eventhough----why is it for European airlines so hard to be or at least nearer to be like the Asian airlines in term of regional seating, service, food/beverage.... This is a globalise world and the aviation market is getting closer and smaller. SQ owning shares of VS etc... It is time that European airlines really consider of improving those addressed sectors earlier. The European frequent flyers and those who are willing to pay premium fares will no longer tolerate such inferior products and services. But most of all the excuses that Asian concepts do not reflects the European concepts or types etc.. What a ...........!!! Please wake up-- all of the European airlines !!! Try to hear what your customers want and most of all take the suggestions of your valuable frequent flyers seriously than in the end of the day---without our paying pockets--there is no YOU !!!

[NCB]

And by Asian airlines, he means this (Business class aboard ANA B737)



What European airlines are offering as C product is just a big joke. The Asians and the Americans are laughing because it's unthinkable.

How much longer do European airlines think they can screw with business passengers? They are losing a huge revenue stream just by not offering business class passengers value for their money.
I want SN to read this because given its low load factors and given its precarious market conditions with Ryanair as neighbor and several airlines trying to take-over BRU, SN has the opportunity and potential to take advantage of driving a big change in the European market and become immune to these threats.

[euroflyer]

I think that everyone is asking the wrong question.
The question is, who would pay for a C-class that isn't worth paying for?

Who would pay 300 euro to sit on this:


and who wouldn't pay it to enjoy a massage on this one:

And who would be able to explain to the controlling guys in the company or to the boss (or even better: the works council in your company!) why the company should be paying some 300 euros extra in order for you to be able to sit on such a posh seat during a short-haul flight which most of the time will last far less than 3 hours in Europe?

Sorry, your mistake is that you speak of 'people who have the means of paying for c-class', I assume more than 90% of those people you speak about on European short-haul flights do not pay themselves for the flights but are corporate travellers who do not spend their own money ... And even worse the majority of them do not want to get a massage during the fligt, but prepare their presentation for the meeting at the destination or read the background documents for the conference they are about to attend ...

For such a short-haul flight I do care about a decent seat pitch (mainly to be able to work with my laptop on the table in front of me somehow normally), some space to keep my documents, newspapers, etcetera; and yes, indeed, some free drinks are nice as well and a smile from the cabin crew

[DeltaWiskey]

@NCB: Hence VX made its first profitable quarter in its existence. They are not making a lot of money on their First Class (if any). For sure a great flying experience for the passenger, but not the moneymaker on short haul flights these days.

Long haul business nowadays is more luxurious than domestic First class. I'm wondering what your business class would look like.

Also, intra Asian flights can last easily be 4-5 hours, while in Europe you are in 2.5 hours almost everywhere.

[NCB]

On 4-5 hour intra-asian, Asian airlines use widebodies. Always.
ANA uses a business class with 2-2 configuration and 60+ inch pitch on all but its charter and regional flights.
In the U.S./Canada market, there is usually a choice of first class on mainline flights.

And who would be able to explain to the controlling guys in the company or to the boss (or even better: the works council in your company!) why the company should be paying some 300 euros extra in order for you to be able to sit on such a posh seat during a short-haul flight which most of the time will last far less than 3 hours in Europe?

I quote myself because I'm not a parrot:

Pax who can't fly C because of their corporate policies, can still fly Y and pay a supplement to add flexibility to their ticket. But since Y would be cheaper under my proposal, these travellers will prefer choosing SN over other mainline airlines so they can spend more money on hotels and restaurants. So this is actually a perfect formula to attract more corporate travel from other mainline carriers.
The few C seats would be filled by another type of customer, typically the thousands of passengers that are flying C already today, and a few more that decide to make the transition because of the better product offered.
If you pull in all the C passengers flying other airlines to and from BRU and put them together into SN's C class by offering a superior product, you can fill 9-12 seats easily!


And if you think that the C class passenger is an extinct animal, try going to flyertalk.com
Enough trip reports there of corporate frequent flyers flying in C class on short-haul flights. just because your company can't afford it doesn't mean that all the world can't afford it.

VX's business class is very popular and always full. Not a big money maker because they only have 2 rows on A319/A320's. SRB probably didn't anticipate such a success himself and it wouldn't surprise anyone if they enhance it in the near future to include more seats. They made their first quarterly profit indeed, albeit very small, at 7.5 million I believe it was. I think that this company will have a great future by becoming the Apple of the skies.

I can go further and tell you that some people will get out of their own way to fly a good business class.
People could go as far as start connecting between short-haul flights through BRU in order to enjoy a real C class.

[euroflyer]

OK, NCB, there might just be different views on this than. If you really believe in your views, so please found your own airline and you will be rich soon ... But maybe you just ask why SRB did not start such a product in Europe? It would have been possible for him for sure, but for some reason he did not ?!?

[cnc]

SN is flying at less than 60% load factors in Europe

you are using the 60% LF in the wrong way, its the average LF. Most routes have a much higher LF on peak hours while lower during the rest of the day. If you would be able to find a way to adjust the cabin quickly during rotation times i'm sure SN would use your idea

[regi]

On 4-5 hour intra-asian, Asian airlines use widebodies. Always.

and what is your explanation of the pictures of the following narrow bodies of stretches of +- 4 hours:

• Indian Kingfisher 's A320 at Bangkok from Delhi or Mumbai ( stretch half A330, half 320 )
  Cebu Pacific with A319 at Macau, Guangzhou, Osaka, Taipei and Singapore mostly from Clark former AFB but no business class.( right Ozzie ?)
  Airasia at Guangzhou , Hong Kong , Mumbia +Delhi from Bangkok with A320 but no business class
  Hainan B737 Bejing-Bangkok with business/first class
  Tiger Airways Singapore-Taipei ( but no business class )

And look up yourself what Silkair does on the stretch Singapore-Chengdu. A320 , 4h35 go and 5h05 return.
2+2 leather seats
http://www.airliners.net/photo/SilkAir/ ... 98b4151e42

Same same with Air China by the way. A319 and 2+2 fabric seats
So narrow bodies are used extensively in Asia up to their limits of about 4 hours, and sometimes with business class availability.
There goes your statement with the word "ALWAYS" . Vapourised.

Dear NCB, we appreciate that you have sometimes mind freshing ideas. But when members react with facts, and you counter react with statements, please take care what you write. You lose all credibility by using wrong data and making false statements.

[NCB]

BMI is putting 2-2 business class on (some of?) their A320's.
This is the new mid-haul business class product of the Lufthansa subsidiary:

http://twitpic.com/371m27/full

I think that SN has an opportunity in this market and they should take it before other airlines do it.
Wouldn't it be marvelous if SN could install this kind of product (but even better) on its incoming A319/A320's and on its RJ replacement?

[LJ]

BMI is putting 2-2 business class on (some of?) their A320's.
This is the new mid-haul business class product of the Lufthansa subsidiary:

http://twitpic.com/371m27/full

I think that SN has an opportunity in this market and they should take it before other airlines do it.
Wouldn't it be marvelous if SN could install this kind of product (but even better) on its incoming A319/A320's and on its RJ replacement?

These aircraft will only be deployed on routes to Africa, Middle East and Asia (Baku). BMI follows (just like IB did recently) the trend set by AF in having a dedicated fleet for these medium haul routes. SN does not have these routes apart from Tel Aviv (though we know you're in favour of SN operating medium haul flights with A319s) and thus doesn't need to have such a C-class.

[cathay belgium]

Hi,

Can't SN operate TLV also not with a A330 ??
Would make another reason to by a next A330 ?? ( togheter with a flight TATL -JFK/EWR/BOS/Dallas? )
Or are loadfactors to small and would a A321 do the job ?

CX-B

[Air Key West]

As far as I can remember (still flew them last year), Mexicana's A319s (two of which are said to join b.air's fleet) had a dedicated Business class section (3 rows of 4 seats in a with 2x2 configuration)

[134flyer]

BMI is putting 2-2 business class on (some of?) their A320's.
This is the new mid-haul business class product of the Lufthansa subsidiary:

http://twitpic.com/371m27/full

bmi has these C seats already for years on their mid-haul A320's & A321's; they have now 'only' replaced the cloth covers with these brown leather covers, not only in C but also in Y. bmi will introduce a completely new C class for their mid-haul around 2012.

I think that SN has an opportunity in this market and they should take it before other airlines do it. Wouldn't it be marvelous if SN could install this kind of product (but even better) on its incoming A319/A320's and on its RJ replacement?

OS e.g. has an excellent 'Premium Service' product on several A320's for their Middle East routes and these A320's have almost exactly the same seats in C as Virgin America has in F. However, OS will get rid of them and replace them with normal Y seats (middle seat blocked in C), as they are loosing money on it due to low demand and the lack of flexibility in the cabin when these A320's are also deployed on intra-European flights (in order to have a high utilisation of these A320's.)

OS introduced this Premium Service when OS was basically run by politicians who didn't have a clue and who never heard of the concept of trying to make a profit; Premium Service was more for 'prestige' reasons than anything else... Marvelous isn't it

And before you start, on most of the routes where OS operated this Premium Service, OS was 'best of class' compared with the European competition, who mostly use narrowbodies with middle seat blocked to these routes (I am not talking about CAI & TLV, where mostly widebodies are being used), and it still didn't work for OS, let alone it would work on intra Euro flights...

As said before, even if the floors of intra Euro C were paved with gold and had completely lie flat seats for current C fares or even lower than that, it still wouldn't work, as most companies have a 'Y only' policy under 5 hours (many even a Y only on TATL flights) no matter what. This has been pointed out many times to you by many here, but still you won't get it...

[tolipanebas]

Another point I like to add concerning a dedicated C class for European flights is that not only are these seats impossible to fill for a premium as has been pointed out ample times now by several members due to the very strict travel policies of companies, but far more worrying than flying around with large empty C class seats is the fact they also cut far into the Y class section of the plane, thus effectively turning it into a too small plane to compete with against other airlines sticking to the standard seating configuration.

Indeed, one of the reasons for SN wanting to switch from RJ100 to A319 on many of its high demand routes is that by offering more seats, they can change to a completely different revenue strategy in Y class allowing them to fight over the growing numbers of price sensitive pax for much longer than they only can do today due to the low seat count on the RJ. If they'd install a very generous and spaceous C class compartment on their A319s, they'd actually take away the advantage from higher volumes and effectively turn their A319s of tomorrow in the RJ100s of today again (as per Y seatcount).

This is also the reason why BD has this dedicated C class configuration ONLY on some of its A321 deployed on very long flights ONLY, so as to still have a reasonable overall seat count. Seat count on these A321s is just 149, whereas the regular A319s at BD have up to 144 seats! Go figure what the same seats installed in an A319 would do to it....

In general, the longer the flight time, the more plausible it becomes you'll be able to reasonably fill a dedicated C class section. This is something which goes for all routes and for all airlines, hence BD seeing a market for it on some of its intercontinental flights from LHR served by narrowbody, notably to what is becoming their new niche market in the Middle East, but note how they are forced to immediately use A321s for it AND build a dedicated fleet as these planes are totally unusable on European routes...

For SN to do the same, they'd thus also have to open up a bunch of new destinations so they can build a dedicated sub fleet which never sees operation on EU airports, yet even then, as OS has demonstrated, these flights need to be at least 5 hours long or nobody is going to pay the premium needed.

Now, I can already hear NCB say SN should operate to new Central African destinations with such a fleet, but sadly for him, almost all of the destinations he had in mind are at least 30% longer than the routes BD operates their A321s on and it's pretty obvious they would fall out of operational reach for an A321 or A320.
As we've just discussed, using a smaller, yet higher range A319 is not possible for the simple reason the Y class would have become too small for SN to be able to compete over the price sensitive VFR market segment with for instance AF, using A330 or 777!
Not to mention neigher option (A321 or A319) is suitable for their huge cargo needs. Check the latest AEA figures on the great cargo loads of SN: cargo alone is often paying the bills in Africa, yet who cares right, NCB?

[JOVAN]

On 4-5 hour intra-asian, Asian airlines use widebodies. Always.

and what is your explanation of the pictures of the following narrow bodies of stretches of +- 4 hours:

• Indian Kingfisher 's A320 at Bangkok from Delhi or Mumbai ( stretch half A330, half 320 )
  Cebu Pacific with A319 at Macau, Guangzhou, Osaka, Taipei and Singapore mostly from Clark former AFB but no business class.( right Ozzie ?)
  Airasia at Guangzhou , Hong Kong , Mumbia +Delhi from Bangkok with A320 but no business class
  Hainan B737 Bejing-Bangkok with business/first class
  Tiger Airways Singapore-Taipei ( but no business class )

And look up yourself what Silkair does on the stretch Singapore-Chengdu. A320 , 4h35 go and 5h05 return.
2+2 leather seats
http://www.airliners.net/photo/SilkAir/ ... 98b4151e42

Same same with Air China by the way. A319 and 2+2 fabric seats
So narrow bodies are used extensively in Asia up to their limits of about 4 hours, and sometimes with business class availability.
There goes your statement with the word "ALWAYS" . Vapourised.

Dear NCB, we appreciate that you have sometimes mind freshing ideas. But when members react with facts, and you counter react with statements, please take care what you write. You lose all credibility by using wrong data and making false statements.

NCB however is right when we take the big airlines, the flag carriers: they mostly fly widebodies:
CX, SQ, TG, Eva, China, Asiana,...MOST fly at least A330 on intra-Asia flights.

Air Asia, Cebu Pac, Silkair... are a different category with a different business modell.

So your statement is also vaporized.

It must be said that NCB has more refreshing ideas than many of you.

And this is a forum, so we can all express our ideas ..

[regi]

Dear Jovan, NCB was not referring to the flag carriers specifically.
And I wouldn't call Hainan a small airline? Or Air China?
And I wouldn't call Silkair a different product, they have business class.
The fact that Airasia, Cebu and Tiger are a different product was already made clear by my addition that they don't have business class.
NCB used the word "ALWAYS", and that made me react. You seem to need to defend NCB by correcting his words into "mostly" . Well, it is possible that NCB had that in mind, I don't know and neither do you. But he could say that himself. I don't know if NCB feels "attacked" by my reply. OK, the word "vaporised" was a bit coloured. But maybe he looked up the data and conceded to the facts. I don't know, neither do you. NCB is active enough to stand up for himself.

I don't know why you compare my ideas with his. I did call his ideas refreshing - honnestly without being cynical. I gave a remark about what happens after launching his ideas and the unfolding reactions.

[134flyer]

This is also the reason why BD has this dedicated C class configuration ONLY on some of its A321 deployed on very long flights ONLY, so as to still have a reasonable overall seat count. Seat count on these A321s is just 149, whereas the regular A319s at BD have up to 144 seats! Go figure what the same seats installed in an A319 would do to it....

In general, the longer the flight time, the more plausible it becomes you'll be able to reasonably fill a dedicated C class section. This is something which goes for all routes and for all airlines, hence BD seeing a market for it on some of its intercontinental flights from LHR served by narrowbody, notably to what is becoming their new niche market in the Middle East, but note how they are forced to immediately use A321s for it AND build a dedicated fleet as these planes are totally unusable on European routes...

Indeed, BD has/used to have some A320's with a mid-haul C cabin, but has already or will in the near future reconfigure them with normal Y seats (middle seat blocked in C) and will solely use A321's on their mid-haul network for the reasons pointed out by tolipanebas.
At the same time, BD has introduced some new relatively 'long' intra-euro routes like LHR-VIE. On these routes however, they are not using a mid-haul C product but classic Y seats with middle seat blocked in C. I wonder why...

[euroflyer]

Fresh ideas are always fine and nobody says we should not discuss them, otherwise we all would have stopped replying long time ago ...

Just a recent experience of myself regaridng the effectiveness of dedicated c-class on medium haul: I did fly with Turkish Airlines IST-DUB in October. It is a flight of above 4 hours, so I had indeed been booked into C according to our travel policy. And TK have on some of their 737-800 a dedicated 2+2 c-class product, so I actually got the chance of this experience. Service and everything was fine, the seats were actually ok as well, but not as luxury as you might think. But the more interesting point: I think there were 6 rows of dedicated c-class and exactly 4 pax in c-class ... Whereas Y was booked quite well, probably above 85%. So even if they would have given of the 4 c-class pax each a full 3-seat-row of traditional seats , they would have had 4 extra rows for Y allowing either more pax to book or to give frequent travellers among Y-pax a free middle seat (like LH is doing with Senator level pax if possible in eco) and keep the regular customers happy this way.

[regi]

Fresh ideas are always fine and nobody says we should not discuss them, otherwise we all would have stopped replying long time ago ...

Just a recent experience of myself regaridng the effectiveness of dedicated c-class on medium haul: I did fly with Turkish Airlines IST-DUB in October. It is a flight of above 4 hours, so I had indeed been booked into C according to our travel policy. And TK have on some of their 737-800 a dedicated 2+2 c-class product, so I actually got the chance of this experience. Service and everything was fine, the seats were actually ok as well, but not as luxury as you might think. But the more interesting point: I think there were 6 rows of dedicated c-class and exactly 4 pax in c-class ... Whereas Y was booked quite well, probably above 85%. So even if they would have given of the 4 c-class pax each a full 3-seat-row of traditional seats , they would have had 4 extra rows for Y allowing either more pax to book or to give frequent travellers among Y-pax a free middle seat (like LH is doing with Senator level pax if possible in eco) and keep the regular customers happy this way.

Regarding that Turkish is sometimes very cheap for business class, this says enough I think. Thank you for this accurate reply wich reflects the experience of the customer.

[DeltaWiskey]

What was the official time window when they would announce their replacement orders? I thought is was end 2010, has it changed meanwhile? Is that time still realistic?