Brussels Airlines' fleet renewal

Join this forum to discuss the latest news that happened in the world of commercial aviation.

Moderator: Latest news team

Post Reply
crew1990
Posts: 1482
Joined: 29 Dec 2010, 21:46

Re: Brussels Airlines' fleet renewal

Post by crew1990 »

Just to know, what is the maximal range of the A321XLR with a full load, to know what are the possibilities the this type of aircraft? Airbus states 8700km meaning this aircraft can reach cities like Mexico, Bogota, Caracas, Bangkok, etc from Brussels.

lucas
Posts: 204
Joined: 01 Feb 2017, 15:06

Re: Brussels Airlines' fleet renewal

Post by lucas »

crew1990 wrote: 25 Jul 2020, 13:56 Just to know, what is the maximal range of the A321XLR with a full load, to know what are the possibilities the this type of aircraft? Airbus states 8700km meaning this aircraft can reach cities like Mexico, Bogota, Caracas, Bangkok, etc from Brussels.
At full capacity, the XLR will be able to fly 7400 km (4000nm). From BRU, that would mean that Nort and West India, Central Afrika (including Kenia, not further south) and New York and Washington in the USA and all major Canadian cities (except for Vancouver) would be in reach. Meaning they would be able to fly it to all the destination they currently fly to.
I've measured these distances very quickly with Google Earth, so there might be a little margin in the distances, this is just to have an overall idea

Magiktrix
Posts: 120
Joined: 15 Sep 2011, 04:10
Location: Jodoigne
Contact:

Re: Brussels Airlines' fleet renewal

Post by Magiktrix »

In Airbus commercial its 8700km. But nobody cares. You cannot decide on a city pair based on that. This number is for a perfect aircraft on a perfect day with airbus test pilot. The real world is more complicated.

Bracebrace
Posts: 271
Joined: 04 Apr 2006, 00:00

Re: Brussels Airlines' fleet renewal

Post by Bracebrace »

You need a payload-range diagram to discuss these things:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DuAe1yLVAAE ... name=large

PttU
Posts: 419
Joined: 24 Nov 2015, 15:07

Re: Brussels Airlines' fleet renewal

Post by PttU »

So, you don't need an XLR, LR would be enough? That's the one on that diagram with the 97t MTOW.
The LR is already available, maybe even at interesting (leasing) prices due to lower aviation demand, while the XLR is not produced yet, and might have a relatively higher price tag, especially the first few years.

oldblueeyes
Posts: 217
Joined: 13 Apr 2020, 12:44

Re: Brussels Airlines' fleet renewal

Post by oldblueeyes »

The only problem here is the fact that all fleet orders are done centrally by the group, and Lufthansa is streamlining fleet decisions in a way that aircraft types should fit to all member brands. This is why there was no interest into the LR version but the group was very open to support the XLR development.

A larger XLR subfleet might make sense if some of the African destinations can't reach critical mass with 333 ( and therefore these might have to be moved somewhere else in the group), but just two A321LR for SN won't make sense. As a group one can not serve each tiny local need - thus for example also the decisions to retire all Q400 fleets - which also opens windws for smaller niche players.

User avatar
lumumba
Posts: 2046
Joined: 04 Sep 2003, 00:00
Location: brussels Europe

Re: Brussels Airlines' fleet renewal

Post by lumumba »

That's what I proposed for years already that SN use the A321LR to Luanda for example but a lot of people where mocking me then.
Hasta la victoria siempre.

User avatar
Conti764
Posts: 1891
Joined: 21 Sep 2007, 23:21

Re: Brussels Airlines' fleet renewal

Post by Conti764 »

lumumba wrote: 26 Jul 2020, 14:04 That's what I proposed for years already that SN use the A321LR to Luanda for example but a lot of people where mocking me then.
I don't know what the discussion was about exactly, nor why you were being mocked, but before stating 'SN should fly the A321(X)LR to this or that destination' one needs to know if:

(a) the mentioned market is big enough for SN to warrant a (direct) flight.

(b) how important cargo is on said market. If cargo is too important to be left behind in BRU, they're better of offering (for example) Luanda in the current triangular flight.

It might however open up opportunities to do more direct flying on the A321(X)LR. On certain days on a A330 (cargo heavy) in combination with another destination and on other days with the A321 (light cargo).

Homo Aeroportus
Posts: 1486
Joined: 24 Feb 2007, 18:28
Location: 2300NM due South of North Pole

Re: Brussels Airlines' fleet renewal

Post by Homo Aeroportus »

Conti764 wrote: 26 Jul 2020, 14:25 ....
(b) how important cargo is on said market. If cargo is too important to be left behind in BRU, they're better of offering (for example) Luanda in the current triangular flight.
....
Fully agreed.

The longer range versions of the A321 carry one or several ACT, Additional Centre Tanks.
These take a lot of hold volume.
Standard A321 CEO/NEO :

Pages from Airbus-Commercial-Aircraft-AC-A321 Rev 202004.jpg

versus :

Pages from Airbus-Commercial-Aircraft-AC-A321 Rev 202004 A321 ACT.jpg
So if SN wants to cover the mission cost by transporting cargo forget about these extended versions.
Of course, if there is another way within the Group to transport profitable cargo to that destination ....

H.A.

User avatar
lumumba
Posts: 2046
Joined: 04 Sep 2003, 00:00
Location: brussels Europe

Re: Brussels Airlines' fleet renewal

Post by lumumba »

Conti764 wrote: 26 Jul 2020, 14:25
lumumba wrote: 26 Jul 2020, 14:04 That's what I proposed for years already that SN use the A321LR to Luanda for example but a lot of people where mocking me then.
I don't know what the discussion was about exactly, nor why you were being mocked, but before stating 'SN should fly the A321(X)LR to this or that destination' one needs to know if:

(a) the mentioned market is big enough for SN to warrant a (direct) flight.

(b) how important cargo is on said market. If cargo is too important to be left behind in BRU, they're better of offering (for example) Luanda in the current triangular flight.

It might however open up opportunities to do more direct flying on the A321(X)LR. On certain days on a A330 (cargo heavy) in combination with another destination and on other days with the A321 (light cargo).
Luanda is in my opinion an high yield destination not sure about cargo but knowing the plane only stays about 1 hour on the ground there can't be a lot of loading or unloading.

Could be used also where the agreement's are very liberal about number of flights.
Hasta la victoria siempre.

User avatar
ChemtrailSwitch
Posts: 7
Joined: 25 Aug 2020, 19:26

Re: Brussels Airlines' fleet renewal

Post by ChemtrailSwitch »

OO-SSC, Star Alliance Livery, will be ferried to Twente Airport in the beginning of next week to be scrapped.

User avatar
sn26567
Posts: 40815
Joined: 13 Feb 2003, 00:00
Location: Rosières/Rozieren, Belgium
Contact:

Re: Brussels Airlines' fleet renewal

Post by sn26567 »

ChemtrailSwitch wrote: 25 Aug 2020, 19:43 OO-SSC, Star Alliance Livery, will be ferried to Twente Airport in the beginning of next week to be scrapped.
Hence, no Brussels Airlines aircraft will sport the Star Alliance livery. Isn't that against the rules of the alliance?

And welcome to aviation24.be, ChemtrailSwitch!
André
ex Sabena #26567

crew1990
Posts: 1482
Joined: 29 Dec 2010, 21:46

Re: Brussels Airlines' fleet renewal

Post by crew1990 »

I'm wondering how will the fleet be in the next years.

Short haul

In the 19 A319's remaining, 5 still have to leave, apparently SSK and SSI and 3 others. But seeing the fleet of other airlines of the group, it seems obvious that at some point, all the A319's will leave the fleet.

Swiss doens't have A319 anymore, Austrian is getting rid of all the A319, Lufthansa and Eurowing is getting rid of older A319 without replacing them with newer one.

For the A320's fleet, some of the aircraft start to be quiet aged, out of 16 aircraft, 10 are above 17 years, with 5 of them already aproaching the 20's

How do you think the short haul fleet will looks like in a couple of years. And what about some smaller aircraft to replace the A319 (Embraer 190? A220?)

Long haul

While brussels airlines is getting rid of the OO-SFT and OO-SFZ, it looks like this is not the end of the A330-200. For the Brussels operation, it will still be the A330-300, but for Germany, in the lufthansa booking engine, we can see that some flights out of FRA to Punta Cana and Windhoek will be operated with A330-200 while Mauritius will be operated with A330-300. I guess Brussels Airlines will get in addition of the A330-300 some A330-200 from Sun Express.

I guess the future expansion of the fleet will be A321XLR, I'm not convince this is the right solution for Africa, but it's definitely is for some destination, I see for example Lubumbashi, witch is too far away from any other big city in Africa, making that a triangular flight with an A330 would be to expensive and operationaly wise, not possible to do within 24h. An A330 just for Lubumbashi would be to big, but with the A321XLR you can fly to Lubumbashi without any other destination. The A321 could rise some new opportunity for Brussels Airlines, I could also see Cap Skiiring in Senegal and why not Mumbai (again) and new Delhi. And of course north America, Boston, Miami, second flight to New York.

rwandan-flyer
Posts: 978
Joined: 19 Dec 2010, 12:30

Re: Brussels Airlines' fleet renewal

Post by rwandan-flyer »

crew1990 wrote: 29 Dec 2020, 14:59 I'm wondering how will the fleet be in the next years.

Short haul

In the 19 A319's remaining, 5 still have to leave, apparently SSK and SSI and 3 others. But seeing the fleet of other airlines of the group, it seems obvious that at some point, all the A319's will leave the fleet.

Swiss doens't have A319 anymore, Austrian is getting rid of all the A319, Lufthansa and Eurowing is getting rid of older A319 without replacing them with newer one.

For the A320's fleet, some of the aircraft start to be quiet aged, out of 16 aircraft, 10 are above 17 years, with 5 of them already aproaching the 20's

How do you think the short haul fleet will looks like in a couple of years. And what about some smaller aircraft to replace the A319 (Embraer 190? A220?)

Long haul

While brussels airlines is getting rid of the OO-SFT and OO-SFZ, it looks like this is not the end of the A330-200. For the Brussels operation, it will still be the A330-300, but for Germany, in the lufthansa booking engine, we can see that some flights out of FRA to Punta Cana and Windhoek will be operated with A330-200 while Mauritius will be operated with A330-300. I guess Brussels Airlines will get in addition of the A330-300 some A330-200 from Sun Express.

I guess the future expansion of the fleet will be A321XLR, I'm not convince this is the right solution for Africa, but it's definitely is for some destination, I see for example Lubumbashi, witch is too far away from any other big city in Africa, making that a triangular flight with an A330 would be to expensive and operationaly wise, not possible to do within 24h. An A330 just for Lubumbashi would be to big, but with the A321XLR you can fly to Lubumbashi without any other destination. The A321 could rise some new opportunity for Brussels Airlines, I could also see Cap Skiiring in Senegal and why not Mumbai (again) and new Delhi. And of course north America, Boston, Miami, second flight to New York.
About FBM, the airport is served by Ethiopian and Kenya Airways. Before covid19 crisis, both ET and KQ served FBM every day. ET sends sometimes its B787. On the cargo side, Cargolux also serves FBM. It won't be easy an easy task for SN.

Since late 2000s / early 2010s, competition is very stiff in Africa. You have Turkish Airlines, Ethiopian Airlines, Emirates, Qatar Airways which have good network. Egytpair and TAP Air Portugal are behind, but they are currently re building a good network. Some airlines will try to fil the gap left by SAA, between UE / USA and Africa.

Although Air Senegal is still a small airline, they are trying to build good network between Europe and West Africa. If the Senegal state doesn't take bad desicions, Air Senegal could become a "big airline" and profitable in West Africa. They have currently 8 aircraft but they are waiting for a second A321 and 8 A220s. They will probably able to serve Cameroon, Rep of Congo, Gabon and DR Congo in the future.

If i remmember they wanted to serve Brussels
Rwanda Aviation News (Drones, Air Force, Civil Aviation, Space, Air Balloon): https://www.facebook.com/RwandAn-Flyer-153177931456873

crew1990
Posts: 1482
Joined: 29 Dec 2010, 21:46

Re: Brussels Airlines' fleet renewal

Post by crew1990 »

rwandan-flyer wrote: 29 Dec 2020, 17:35 Since late 2000s / early 2010s, competition is very stiff in Africa. You have Turkish Airlines, Ethiopian Airlines, Emirates, Qatar Airways which have good network. Egytpair and TAP Air Portugal are behind, but they are currently re building a good network. Some airlines will try to fil the gap left by SAA, between UE / USA and Africa.
So if there is concurrence on a route, Brussels Airlines should not give a try? Then 38 aircraft is wayyyy too much, one or two aircraft would be more than enough to cover all the flight without concurrence, one for the normal operation and the another one as back up.

rwandan-flyer
Posts: 978
Joined: 19 Dec 2010, 12:30

Re: Brussels Airlines' fleet renewal

Post by rwandan-flyer »

They can try. Sometimes airlines have to take risks, if they want to grow. In deed, SN can focus on some secondaries cities in Africa for business, leisure or VFR (Mombasa, Kilimandjaro, Zanzibar, Cap Skiring, Pointe Noire,...)

I just wanted to say that Ethiopian Airlines and Kenya Airways are not small competitors. And competition is stiff in Africa. Even if you call Brussels Airlines (i guess that many customers make the link with Sabena) or Air France and you have a long history in Africa, it doesn't mean that you will keep ruling the sky in Africa.

There are new players
Rwanda Aviation News (Drones, Air Force, Civil Aviation, Space, Air Balloon): https://www.facebook.com/RwandAn-Flyer-153177931456873

Matt
Posts: 219
Joined: 14 Nov 2018, 09:20

Re: Brussels Airlines' fleet renewal

Post by Matt »

Hello there,

Is there any news on OO-SFH being repainted? ( and maybe OO-SFB ? )

I still find the livery on SFH... disgusting...

Kr;

Matt

crew1990
Posts: 1482
Joined: 29 Dec 2010, 21:46

Re: Brussels Airlines' fleet renewal

Post by crew1990 »

No idea about OO-SFH.

About the fleet:

OO-SFE goes to Ammam tomorrow for maintenance
OO-SFG comes back from Ammam tomorrow
OO-SFT will fly a last time to Lourdes on 15/01 for phase-out
OO-SSN will fly to Ljubljana on 15/01 for maintenance

kazansky137
Posts: 24
Joined: 09 Apr 2018, 10:25

Re: Brussels Airlines' fleet renewal

Post by kazansky137 »

Hello,

I'm wondering if the crew that will bring back OO-SFG from AMM this thursday (?) is
the same that is now flying OO-SFE on its way to AMM (left BRU at 10:31).

Cheers, Alain.

crew1990
Posts: 1482
Joined: 29 Dec 2010, 21:46

Re: Brussels Airlines' fleet renewal

Post by crew1990 »

Normally yes, this is why they swam both fram in the same day. Brussels Airlines do the same with the A32s fleet to Ljubjana

Post Reply