Brussels Airlines' fleet renewal

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teach
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Re: Brussels Airlines' fleet renewal

Post by teach »

Boavida wrote: 22 May 2017, 14:46 So some second-hand planes to replace the other second-hand planes... Poor SN, clearly not important enough for LH for some real new planes...
To some people, the glass really is always half empty, isn't it?

BAAV
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Re: Brussels Airlines' fleet renewal

Post by BAAV »

teach wrote: 22 May 2017, 15:47
Boavida wrote: 22 May 2017, 14:46 So some second-hand planes to replace the other second-hand planes... Poor SN, clearly not important enough for LH for some real new planes...
To some people, the glass really is always half empty, isn't it?
according to 'De Tijd' the planes will be less than 10 years old (Cathay also has older ones according to airfleets.net). Looks like prudent management to me... better a controlled financial growth than financial overreaching

If the to be renewed cabin will include business then it appears that long haul will not copy the Eurowings product...

nordikcam
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Re: Brussels Airlines' fleet renewal

Post by nordikcam »

teach wrote: 22 May 2017, 15:47
Boavida wrote: 22 May 2017, 14:46 So some second-hand planes to replace the other second-hand planes... Poor SN, clearly not important enough for LH for some real new planes...
To some people, the glass really is always half empty, isn't it?
And for me it's half full ! Very good news ! Is it only for replacement or for expansion too ( 1 or 2 ) ?

Passenger
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Re: Brussels Airlines' fleet renewal

Post by Passenger »

From the press release and the article on Luchtzak.be homepage: "...all Airbus A330 aircraft will be equipped with an entirely reviewed new cabin providing the highest comfort in all three travel classes (Business Class, Economy Privilege and Economy Class)..."

Just wondering: with Brussels Airlines becoming Eurowings soon, according to some, how does this fit? Will Eurowings offer Low Cost Business Class? Is Eurowings going to offer Low Cost Economy, Economy Plus ànd Business Class on the same flight? Or does this decision/investment perhaps means that "part of the Eurowings Group" is more a statement for accountants, auditors and shareholders?

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lumumba
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Re: Brussels Airlines' fleet renewal

Post by lumumba »

I hope they will have WI FI.....
Hasta la victoria siempre.

Boavida
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Re: Brussels Airlines' fleet renewal

Post by Boavida »

teach wrote: 22 May 2017, 15:47
Boavida wrote: 22 May 2017, 14:46 So some second-hand planes to replace the other second-hand planes... Poor SN, clearly not important enough for LH for some real new planes...
To some people, the glass really is always half empty, isn't it?
The Lufthansa Group is one of the biggest airline groups in the world. They have means. At this moment they have about 200(!) new planes on oder. Why couldn't they just reserve some of these planes for SN, or order 10 extra?

I don't want to sound too negative, but this looks like they don't take SN very seriously. With these second hand planes, there won't be new planes for at least another 10 years. This is sad.

I understand this is good news for SN, but hardly exciting. With really new planes they could get some great free publicity (like Swiss with their brand new 777's), now it'll just go unnoticed I guess...

DeltaWiskey
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Re: Brussels Airlines' fleet renewal

Post by DeltaWiskey »

The cabin will still have a dedicated lie-flat Business Class (as well as a real Y+ seat, not just increased pitch). The 7 "new" A330 will get this cabin outfit during phase-in, the other 3 (SFT/X/Z) will be retrofitted with the new cabin lay-out. Wifi is to be fitted as well.

This fleet renewal announcement has nothing to do with a possible expansion (eg 11th and/or 12th A330), it only deals with the replacement of 7 A330 currently in the fleet.

We already had a discussion about new vs used frames. New = more expensive, it's not always better (as in more profitable). New planes were an option until very late in the fleet renewal project.

Stij
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Re: Brussels Airlines' fleet renewal

Post by Stij »

Thanks DeltaWiskey for all explanations!
DeltaWiskey wrote: 22 May 2017, 16:57 The cabin will still have a dedicated lie-flat Business Class (as well as a real Y+ seat, not just increased pitch). The 7 "new" A330 will get this cabin outfit during phase-in, the other 3 (SFT/X/Z) will be retrofitted with the new cabin lay-out. Wifi is to be fitted as well.
If I remember well, all 332 were about the same age and same configuration as they're all ex SN or SR.
So 2 will be replaced and 2 will stay.
Am I correct when I state that age wasn't the main issue for these 2, but capacity?
This fleet renewal announcement has nothing to do with a possible expansion (eg 11th and/or 12th A330), it only deals with the replacement of 7 A330 currently in the fleet.
OK, I understand the eventual expansion will be more 333 than 332, otherwise and SFU an W wouldn't have been replaced... Hopefully more RR powered planes from the same "batch" will be on the market when expansion is needed... or "dreaming"mode on"... options have been taken...

Cheers,

Stij

Boavida
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Re: Brussels Airlines' fleet renewal

Post by Boavida »

DeltaWiskey wrote: 22 May 2017, 16:57 New planes were an option until very late in the fleet renewal project.
This makes it even worse :(

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quixoticguide
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Re: Brussels Airlines' fleet renewal

Post by quixoticguide »

CX oldest A330 is 21.9 years old / youngest A330 is 2.2 years old
SQ oldest A330 is 8.4 years old. / youngest A330 is 1.7 years old
Visit my flights on: http://www.quixoticguide.com

Bralo20
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Re: Brussels Airlines' fleet renewal

Post by Bralo20 »

Boavida wrote: 22 May 2017, 17:31 This makes it even worse :(
Why? What's wrong with fairly young second hand planes? For an airline like SN it's currently the best decision that could be made. Coming off lease with SQ & CX and with the NEO around the corner those A333's will be fairly "cheap" which makes it a sound business decision.

I don't mind flying a 9 year old A333, hell, I didn't even mind flying a 20+ year old A333, if maintained well they fly as good (or sometimes even better) than a new one ;)

convair
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Re: Brussels Airlines' fleet renewal

Post by convair »

This recurring lament about new planes is a bit childish, imho (sorry Boavida and others...)

I'm not sure how much impact the announcement of New planes would have on the number of SN pax.

The fact that New ones were an option seems to indicate that the choice was made purely on economical grounds, and/or for practical reasons such as availability or the absence of pilots training requirement etc..,and that should be reassuring.

The purchase vs leasing option is also interesting. I suppose the leasing has to be for a defined period of time and you have to pay penalties if and when you decide to switch to another (New? :) ;) ) type in the middle of the lease period, whereas you can dispose of them more easily if you own them.

Oiseau du Ciel
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Re: Brussels Airlines' fleet renewal

Post by Oiseau du Ciel »

Well I'm not an expert but given the fact that SN is only profitable since 2015 (okay there was profit in 2007 and 2010), and we don't know if it is a sustainable profit,we hope it is, I consider it as prudent management as BAAV already mentioned. Given the fact that a new A330-200 costs $229mio, a new A330-300 $253mio, a A330-800NEO $249mio and the A330-900NEO $284mio (prices 2015) it would be a financial operation in the range of $ 1,6bio to $1,988bio. I don't know if it SN has the liquidities to support this deal. I know there might be some discounts and Lufthansa can give financial support but I think We need to walk at first, and slowly start running. But yes, a A330-800 would have been nice indeed, but at this moment they have a vision for sustainability.

teach
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Re: Brussels Airlines' fleet renewal

Post by teach »

Boavida wrote: 22 May 2017, 16:37 The Lufthansa Group is one of the biggest airline groups in the world. They have means. At this moment they have about 200(!) new planes on oder. Why couldn't they just reserve some of these planes for SN, or order 10 extra?
Because:
-none of the planes currently on order are suitable replacements for SN's A330s;
-ordering new A330-300s now would be quite foolish given the fact the follow-up is nearing completion, and given the plethora of young second-hand examples on the market right now for a good price;
-getting these A330-300s means they now have a fleet of similarly aged RR-powered A330-300s at three airlines, streamlinig the fleet accross the group, and meaning that once they're up for replacement, the group can place a joint order;
I don't want to sound too negative, but this looks like they don't take SN very seriously. With these second hand planes, there won't be new planes for at least another 10 years. This is sad.
Nobody cares whether the planes are factory fresh or not, except some aviation afficionados like us. It means nothing.

nordikcam
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Re: Brussels Airlines' fleet renewal

Post by nordikcam »

sn26567 wrote: 22 May 2017, 15:23
Boeing767copilot wrote: 22 May 2017, 13:38 Where do they come from? CX, LH or SIA?
4 from Cathay, 3 from Singapore.
Which ones would leave ? The oldest ones ? SFM / SFN / SFO /SFW / SFV / and SFY / SFZ ?

RTM
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Re: Brussels Airlines' fleet renewal

Post by RTM »

nordikcam wrote: 22 May 2017, 19:56 Which ones would leave ? The oldest ones ? SFM / SFN / SFO /SFW / SFV / and SFY / SFZ ?
SFX and SFT stay for sure, I thought SFY would stay as well, but DelteWiskey states it is SFZ that will stay. Well, one of the two anyway.

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KriVa
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Re: Brussels Airlines' fleet renewal

Post by KriVa »

Are these "new" frames only intended for replacement, or for expansion as well? (i.e.. both SFZ and SFY stay, for example)
Thomas

DeltaWiskey
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Re: Brussels Airlines' fleet renewal

Post by DeltaWiskey »

SFZ lease ends in Oct '19, it will be the last of the batch of 7 to leave. SFY lease goes until 2021. SFT 2022.

convair
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Re: Brussels Airlines' fleet renewal

Post by convair »

RTM wrote: 22 May 2017, 20:36
nordikcam wrote: 22 May 2017, 19:56 Which ones would leave ? The oldest ones ? SFM / SFN / SFO /SFW / SFV / and SFY / SFZ ?
SFX and SFT stay for sure, I thought SFY would stay as well, but DelteWiskey states it is SFZ that will stay. Well, one of the two anyway.
Beside SFT, SFU is the "youngest" 332, but leasing terms might be the deciding factor here.

Anyhow, in 2 years from now, SN might need to expand the fleet by 1 or 2 aircraft. So, we'll see...

Oiseau du Ciel
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Re: Brussels Airlines' fleet renewal

Post by Oiseau du Ciel »

KriVa wrote: 22 May 2017, 20:59 Are these "new" frames only intended for replacement, or for expansion as well? (i.e.. both SFZ and SFY stay, for example)
I think for replacement. Yet I heard rumours about opening a new line to Miami, but I'm not all sure about that so maybe in the future there might be further expansion. However they will have competition of TUI.

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