Brussels Airlines' fleet renewal

[Jetter]

SN HAS an OLD fleet, and that is a problem, a BIG problem.

It's indeed a very old fleet, more than 14 years old average. I compared with other European airliners and only found Austrian to have an older fleet. If Austrian replaced their Fokkers SN might have the oldest fleet of Europe It's like the Koryo of Europe

[JOVAN]

SN HAS an OLD fleet, and that is a problem.
a BIG problem.

Having an old fleet is a problem, not a BIG problem.

I disagree.
It is a BIG problem.

2 or 3 canceled flights is enough to drop an airline forever.
This is a customer/ passenger speaking.

[Avroflyer]

SN HAS an OLD fleet, and that is a problem.
a BIG problem.

Having an old fleet is a problem, not a BIG problem.

I disagree.
It is a BIG problem.

2 or 3 canceled flights is enough to drop an airline forever.
This is a customer/ passenger speaking.

Okay Jovan stop flying BA, DL, AA, UA, LH, ... because they all have older aircraft and they all have flight cancelled flights every now and then... that's aviation so sorry to pop you're bubble here

The 330 fleet is indeed one of the older yet in very good condition however every aircraft can break down even the shiny new ones ( for example the JAF dreamliner).

The 330's will be taken care for however this is not done in 1-2-3 so it needs time and money but don't worry they are working on it

As for the other aircrafts ... they aren't even that old especially not in comparision to other majors as AF,LH,BA,...

[Jetter]

Okay Jovan stop flying BA, DL, AA, UA, LH, ... because they all have older aircraft

Of this list only DL has older aircraft than SN. With current known fleet plans, SN fleet will be older than DL also in 2017.

[Passenger]

This is what Airfleets.net shows – just a general “Fleet age”:

Belgium:
Jetairfly : 5,4 years
Thomas Cook Airlines : 13,1 years
Brussels Airlines : 14,4 years
TNT Airways : 16,7 years
VLM Airlines : 25,9 years
(Belgian Air Force, airliners: 14,5 years)

The Netherlands:
TUI Netherlands : 8,1 years
Transavia : 9,7 years
KLM Cityhopper: 10,8 years
KLM : 11,3 years
Corendon Dutch Airlines : 12,0 years
Denim Air : 16,8 years
Martinair : 21,3 years

Others:
American Airlines: 11,2 years
Lufthansa : 11,3 years
Air France : 11,6 years
British Airways : 12,7 years
Swiss International : 13,2 years
Austrian Airlines : 16,2 years
Delta Air Lines : 17,1 years
Swiss : 17,4 years

[crew1990]

SN would have 8 young a330, the number of cancellation would be the same. The fact that SN does' t have a sparte aircraft is the big problem, not the age of the fleet.

[Avroflyer]

Okay Jovan stop flying BA, DL, AA, UA, LH, ... because they all have older aircraft

Of this list only DL has older aircraft than SN. With current known fleet plans, SN fleet will be older than DL also in 2017.

Let's run down some numbers here for example the 319 fleet: SN: 11.7 years , LH 13.8 years, AF: 15 years, BA 13.8 years,...

Indeed the 330's are among the oldest yet they are not AOG more than a average plane and IF they go AOG it has indeed a big repercussion on operations because it's a small fleet.

SN has a very reliable fleet at this moment despite some older A/C's (I fly on those "very old planes" every day so I have a pretty good view on that )

[sean1982]

Some important airlines were naturally left out in passengers summary:

Norwegian: 3.8 years
easyjet: 6.3 years
Ryanair: 6.7 years
Vueling: 6.9 years
Germanwings: 13.8 years
Wizzair: 3.9 years

Quite impressive to see that the LCC's are miles ahead of the competition regarding fleet age (with the exception of germanwings then) and associated fuel burn/maintenance costs. They have to be in order to compete. As SN is also striving for a hybrid/LCC model a younger fleet should be one of the focus points.

[Jetter]

Let's run down some numbers here for example the 319 fleet: SN: 11.7 years , LH 13.8 years, AF: 15 years, BA 13.8 years,...

Typical you choose the youngest type of SN on average as example for comparison. As avroflyer you should know the avro's are very old as well

[Avroflyer]

Nope Jetter those are fleet averages as you an find on the internet Avro's aren't young I'm aware of that yes but in case you missed out those will be phased out

[lumumba]

If I understood good it's impossible to stop those canceld flights and make SN profitable ?!?
I mean a small company like SN will never be able to compete with AF etc...?

[Avroflyer]

If I understood good it's impossible to stop those canceld flights and make SN profitable ?!?
I mean a small company like SN will never be able to compete with AF etc...?

SN will get profitable of course but you will never be able to totally eliminate cancelled flights ... Every airline has them... I'm not saying that it happens every day but it happens due to various reasons not necessarily technicals

[lumumba]

If I understood good it's impossible to stop those canceld flights and make SN profitable ?!?
I mean a small company like SN will never be able to compete with AF etc...?

SN will get profitable of course but you will never be able to totally eliminate cancelled flights ... Every airline has them... I'm not saying that it happens every day but it happens due to various reasons not necessarily technicals

Sure and that's normal but the average needs to be the same.

[teach]

I really don't understand this obsession some here have with SN's fleet age. The age of the fleet is not a problem as long as the planes remain reliable. And I haven't seen anything to indicate that SN's fleet is any less reliable than that of other airlines.

As has been said here multiple times, by multiple people, the reason SN sometimes has to cancel a long-haul flight due to a technical problem is NOT because of the age of the A330 fleet, but due to its SIZE. There's only eight of them. If one breaks down, chances are there'll be no back-up. If a plane breaks down over at BA, LH, AF or KL, the odds are they'll have a spare lying around for just that instance.

Despite this having been said so many times, every two pages someone else feels the need to point out that SN's fleet age is a problem because they have to cancel long-haul flights every now and then.

And SN the European Air Koryo? I mean really? Drama queen much?
So what does that make Delta then? Oh, right, one of the most profitable, and most reliable airlines in the world. Oops. They're consistently among the best in the US in on-time performance and cancelled flights, despite the fact that their fleet is on average another three years older than SN's. Their entire 116-strong MD-88 fleet is older than SN's oldest aircraft. And they have announced NO plans to replace them any time soon.

[sean1982]

I dont think that age has an impact on dispatch reliability. As has been said before, the aircraft are well maintained, however ... Aging airplanes do require a much bigger investment in maintaining them than new(er) airplanes and it has an impact on fuel burn. Not only do older engines burn more fuel, older airplanes are usually also heavier due to modifications and damage repairs over the years. The difference will not be that much, but if you can save a bit per flight multiplied with all flights in a year and multiplied per aircraft the difference can be quite big. In order to stay competitive or extract more profitable a newer fleet MIGHT be a better choice, depending on the business figures. None of us here on the forum are really knowledgable enough to decide that

Delta here is named, but doesnt really compare as the MD88 fleet is OWNED and basically doesnt cost them much and as far as I know none of SN's fleet is owned.

[teach]

Delta here is named, but doesnt really compare as the MD88 fleet is OWNED and basically doesnt cost them much and as far as I know none of SN's fleet is owned.

While that is true, you're also forgetting that a new aircraft costs considerably more to lease than an old one of the same type. For example, a new A330-300 will set you back some $900,000 per month, while an old one can cost you as little as $250,000. That's less than what a new A320 will cost you ($350,000 per month). You need to burn a LOT less fuel, and perform a LOT less maintenance to make up for that difference...

[convair]

Delta here is named, but doesnt really compare as the MD88 fleet is OWNED and basically doesnt cost them much and as far as I know none of SN's fleet is owned.

While that is true, you're also forgetting that a new aircraft costs considerably more to lease than an old one of the same type. For example, a new A330-300 will set you back some $900,000 per month, while an old one can cost you as little as $250,000. That's less than what a new A320 will cost you ($350,000 per month). You need to burn a LOT less fuel, and perform a LOT less maintenance to make up for that difference...

@teach
Thanks for this informative post.These figures shed more light on this topic than all the hollow arguments I've read here!

[teddybAIR]

The only ones obsessed with fleet age are aviation enthousiasts posting their 2 cents on forums like these. For an airline, the age of a fleet is irrelevant. The possible consequences of the age are, but these can be managed. In the end, what counts is
- customer experience: how does the passenger experience the aircraft? I don't think there's a real issue there
- dispatch reliability: is the fleet reliable up to an acceptable/desirable level as to not disrupt operations in an unacceptable frequency?
- total cost of ownership: fuel burn is a factor, granted. But in the end, bottom line is driven by the total cost of ownership and the revenues you are able to generate with those costs. Example: for their capacity, the AVRO's are not exactly fuel economical. Yet, given their bargain leasing rates, in times of low fuel prices, they can turn out to be quite a money maker.

[airazurxtror]

Well, reading all the good things said here above about old aircraft (profitable, comfortable, reliable), 2-cents aviation enthusiasts like me may wonder that some airlines actually order new aircraft !
Do Ryanair, Wizz Air, Norwegian have it all wrong, with their hundreds of new aircraft ordered ?

[Passenger]

Well, reading all the good things said here above about old aircraft (profitable, comfortable, reliable), 2-cents aviation enthusiasts like me may wonder that some airlines actually order new aircraft !
Do Ryanair, Wizz Air, Norwegian have it all wrong, with their hundreds of new aircraft ordered ?

When you buy or lease 1 or 2 aircraft, you will pay the price.
When you buy or lease 50 or 100 aircraft, you decide the price.