Brussels Airlines' fleet renewal

[sn26567]

An example for Brussels Airlines? TAP Portugal, an airline from a small country, orders 14 A330-900neo for long-haul, and 39 A320neo Family aircraft (15 A320neos and 24 A321neos) for short- and medium-haul traffic.

https://www.aviation24.be/airlines_press_r ... -aircraft/

Very ambitious! Why can't SN do the same?

[White Light]

SN cannot do the same because its shareholders including LH do not want to put money on the table, whereas TAP's new owners want to invest in their airline.

[sn26567]

No need to put money upfront on the table. SN leases all of its aircraft, it doesn't buy them. And this is probably also the case for TAP, because even if its new owners have deep pockets, such a new fleet should cost a big lot of money if it has to be purchased.

[KriVa]

Like I said before, leasing new aircraft is, or can be, a lot more expensive than operating "old aircraft". In that way, deep(-er) pockets are needed to operate new aircraft, even when just leasing them.
While things are looking up for SN, I'd say the priority now should be to be, and stay, profitable. Else, the company might not be around anymore when their new aircraft are to be delivered.

[Homo Aeroportus]

Let's compare the type of ownership.

TAP.
The government sold 61% of TAP Group to Atlantic Gateway, made up of American-Brazilian aviation tycoon David Neeleman CEO of Brazil's Azul airline and the founder of U.S. JetBlue, and Portuguese bus company owner Humberto Pedrosa.

SN.
Abstract from SN web site :
Brussels Airlines is for almost 100% owned by the SN Airholding (1,811,308 shares out of 1,811,309 actions). The SN Airholding is owned for 45% by the Lufthansa AG.
SN Airholding is a Belgian holding of over 30 shareholders. The holding is made up of top level companies, financial institutions and investment groups such as
the Virgin Group,
Fortis,
ING,
Suez,
Tractebel,
Brussels Airport,
la Société Régionale d’Investissements Wallone (sic !) (SRIW) and
Société Régionale d’Investissements Bruxelloise (SRIB), …

BTW, who has that single share (or "action" ).

H.A.

[White Light]

Like I said before, leasing new aircraft is, or can be, a lot more expensive than operating "old aircraft".

I don't claim to be an expert, but I would expect that higher leasing costs would be compensated by lower fuel and maintenance cost.

[RTM]

Maintenance cost ok, but don't overestimate it.
But how is an identical aircraft using less fuel by being new? As long as the same basic model and engine combination is the same, there is not going to be a fuel burn advantage. Maybe the new winglets will help, but those can be retrofitted as well. For the A32F, the fuel burn is only going to be better with the NEO, which is not available yet, and has a quite substantial waiting list.

My guess is that eventually the NEO (new ones) will replace the CFM powered A32F, but that is not going to be for the first years. In the mean time, the current fleet will serve just fine.

[convair]

Maintenance cost ok, but don't overestimate it.
But how is an identical aircraft using less fuel by being new? As long as the same basic model and engine combination is the same, there is not going to be a fuel burn advantage. Maybe the new winglets will help, but those can be retrofitted as well. For the A32F, the fuel burn is only going to be better with the NEO, which is not available yet, and has a quite substantial waiting list.

My guess is that eventually the NEO (new ones) will replace the CFM powered A32F, but that is not going to be for the first years. In the mean time, the current fleet will serve just fine.

I know you are refering mainly to the s/h fleet here, but meanwhile SN 501 to JFK was again cancelled today!

[teach]

I know you are refering mainly to the s/h fleet here, but meanwhile SN 501 to JFK was again cancelled today!

Cancellations happen on a daily basis, all over the world, with old and new planes. Do you have any stats that show that SN cancels more long-haul flights than other airlines, and that SN's long-haul fleet is noticeably less reliable than the fleets of other airlines?

[RTM]

Like I said before, I am very confident that rejuvenating the l/h fleet is on the agenda, and will take place before the rejuvenation of the s/h fleet.

But, then again, what is the reason for this cancelation? Can be lots of things, I don't know. But might just as well has happened with a new aircraft. Without knowing the details, it is a bit too early to blame the age of the aircraft.

[convair]

Yes, cancellations happen every day and they are more noticeable in a smaller airline like SN. And I am not even blaming the age of the fleet; but you will surely agree that cancelling a JFK flight is bad publicity for SN.

[teach]

And I am not even blaming the age of the fleet.

So why even mention it here, in a discussion that is EXACTLY about the age of the fleet? If you're not blaming the age of the fleet, you have a funny way of showing that...

[flightlover]

Like I said before, I am very confident that rejuvenating the l/h fleet is on the agenda, and will take place before the rejuvenation of the s/h fleet.

But, then again, what is the reason for this cancelation? Can be lots of things, I don't know. But might just as well has happened with a new aircraft. Without knowing the details, it is a bit too early to blame the age of the aircraft.

And that is how it should be done after getting rid of the thirsty Avro's.

Short haul could have large benefits from having less thirsty planes. But the age of the plane is more relevant on the long haul fleet. As newer planes are not only more economic on the fuel segment, but also tend to have better payload capacities than the early birds. When operating flights to hot places this will impact the older planes more than the newer ones.

[lumumba]

I know you are refering mainly to the s/h fleet here, but meanwhile SN 501 to JFK was again cancelled today!

Cancellations happen on a daily basis, all over the world, with old and new planes. Do you have any stats that show that SN cancels more long-haul flights than other airlines, and that SN's long-haul fleet is noticeably less reliable than the fleets of other airlines?

I can speek from my own experience here,last year I had 3 cancellations with SN 2 FIH and 1 DLA!!!!
Same year with AF:0 and I flew more with AF.
We have to be serious here it's a big problem at SN.
And I realy like to fly with them....

[KriVa]

Air France does have quite a few more long haul aircraft available than SN, though. It's only logical that chances are higher that AF will be able to obtain an other aircraft to perform a flight if the original aircraft goes tech.
SN does not have this luxury. The long haul fleet is rather small, and being used quite intensively (as it should).
Like I said before, that's the problem of having a small (sub-)fleet, this kind of problem immediately hinders operations, where it would not do so in a larger airline. I'm not holding that against SN, they really are doing the best they can with what they have. And doing quite a good job, at that.

White Light: Newer aircraft tend to use less fuel, and be slightly cheaper on the maintenance side (however, don't underestimate the issues a brand new aircraft goes through, even if it's a well established design. A new aircraft tends to have "child diseases".) but the leasing tends to be rather more expensive.
How the comparison between the two is, depends largely on the terms negotiated in the contract with the lessor, and the fuel/maintenance cost.

[lumumba]

Air France does have quite a few more long haul aircraft available than SN, though. It's only logical that chances are higher that AF will be able to obtain an other aircraft to perform a flight if the original aircraft goes tech.
SN does not have this luxury. The long haul fleet is rather small, and being used quite intensively (as it should).
Like I said before, that's the problem of having a small (sub-)fleet, this kind of problem immediately hinders operations, where it would not do so in a larger airline. I'm not holding that against SN, they really are doing the best they can with what they have. And doing quite a good job, at that.

I now that but that is not an excuse .
Has passager I now a can rely more on AF.
I now my boss does not take SN anymore for years now SN canceled the flight to Luanda .
He mist his business appointment because that.
But worse they put him the day after on a old Tristar .....

[KriVa]

So... What would be the solution, according to you? Planes, whether new or old, go tech from time to time, that's just a fact.
Bigger airlines, like AF, can handle this more discreetly, since they have more planes to shuffle around. Airlines like SN don't have this option, sadly. They have to make things work with what they have. While some news is in the pipeline about the renewal of the long haul fleet, it is not THE priority right now. That's profitability.
I fail to see how making the arrangement so the passengers can get to their destination, is worse than abandoning them and leaving them at their origin.

[Conti764]

An example for Brussels Airlines? TAP Portugal, an airline from a small country, orders 14 A330-900neo for long-haul, and 39 A320neo Family aircraft (15 A320neos and 24 A321neos) for short- and medium-haul traffic.

https://www.aviation24.be/airlines_press_r ... -aircraft/

Very ambitious! Why can't SN do the same?

TAP is mostly owned by an aviation oriented company which wants TAP to grow...

SN is for 65% owned by a bunch of Belgian companies who invested because the government in 2001 asked them to and gave them incentives. Ever since it's formation all these shareholders wanted is to get rid of their shares as soon as possible... The other 45% are in the hands of an airline group which first wants to see SN gain profitability and in the mean time look how to incorporate the company into their current activities when the main focus is not on SN itself...

[JOVAN]

And I am not even blaming the age of the fleet.

So why even mention it here, in a discussion that is EXACTLY about the age of the fleet? If you're not blaming the age of the fleet, you have a funny way of showing that...

SN HAS an OLD fleet, and that is a problem.
a BIG problem.

[Passenger]

SN HAS an OLD fleet, and that is a problem.
a BIG problem.

Having an old fleet is a problem, not a BIG problem.