Brussels Airlines' fleet renewal

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Flanker2
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Joined: 05 Dec 2012, 23:15

Re: Brussels Airlines' fleet renewal

Post by Flanker2 »

This has become standard practice across the industry.
Even on aircraft coming off lease, except engines and APU that are usually seen as separate assets (and sometimes leased separetely) and mostly need to be the same S/N as when leased out, anything else are usually not contractually required to be the same S/N as long as they are compatible and of equivalent value and serviceable. In fact, most interior trim except seats don't have S/N's and are difficult to repair, while costing a ton of money, even for small tiny cracks.

Parts rotate within a fleet and as an operator you can not be expected to put that puzzle back together before an aircraft comes off lease, except for the big parts like engines and APU. In fact, if you lease several aircraft from the same lessor, you don't even have to put the same engines back on, you can decide to put the worst ones.
If it's an owned aircraft even better, common sense is to put the worst serial numbers together to compose your own puzzle.

SQ does it, EK does it, SN does it, FR does it. Everybody does it.
It's only that you aren't aware of it.
Last edited by sn26567 on 22 May 2015, 10:45, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Edited for unsuitable language

RTM
Posts: 356
Joined: 07 Apr 2013, 00:27

Re: Brussels Airlines' fleet renewal

Post by RTM »

Only if an aircraft is destined to be scrapped,will it be a possibility. Otherwise you have a contract to live up to. Simple as that. A condition that is less than the agreed redelivery condition will come with a nasty fine. But that also goes the other way, so in fact it may be attractive to redeliver a better than agreed aircraft.

If you are selling... Same thing... Boils down to how much money you want. A clapped out POS,you get peanuts, a good solid aircraft, and you get a healthy return on your investment.

If you think leasing company's are a couple of numbnuts that just accept any aircraft back in any condition it is thrown at them, you clearly have no clue... They make tons of money, and there is a reason for that.

Flanker2
Posts: 1729
Joined: 05 Dec 2012, 23:15

Re: Brussels Airlines' fleet renewal

Post by Flanker2 »

Well RTM, I won't try to convince you.

Do you really think that lessors keep track of every LRU and expect all of the original LRU S/N's to be back on the aircraft by end of lease? What happens then to units that are rotating inside the fleet, are sent for repair or overhaul or were KIA? :lol: Do you think that an operator is going to leave a brand new 100.000 Euro LRU on an aircraft going off lease? :roll:

As for sales, only time and cycles of airframe, engines and APU matter. For the rest all that matters is for everything to be serviceable and the inspection to turn up no surprises, for the aircraft to hit market value.
If you are an operator and have an engine that has been giving you more trouble than average, despite having less hours than other engines, you're going to keep that engine for yourself? :roll:
50,000 man-hours D-check's: not enough to find a lost tool ..
Do you think that there are work card for lost tools on D-checks? At Japan Airlines who have obsessive maintenance plans maybe, but at most other airlines, the information stops at the tooling department IF the mechanic has the decency to report it lost.
Also, a "D-check" doesn't necessarily mean that everything is exposed. There are many area's to an aircraft that just aren't accessible until you tear it apart at the scrapyard. As a matter of fact, good luck finding anything that falls below the cockpit... you'll find a lot of things there, but not what you lost. :lol:

Last but not least, a D-check mostly entails that either some big units like engines or landing gears get replaced or overhauled, LRU's go on overhaul and some inspections are done more thoroughly than otherwise. It's not like they dust the whole airplane off just because it's a D-check (again, unless it's Japan Airlines).

And to inject some reality, when European carriers send their aircraft for heavy maintenance to East Europe or Southeast Asia, they know full and well that a big chunk of the work cards are just stamped without the actual work having been carried out. The EWIS inspection task cards are probably the first to be stamped without even a look at the wiring.

But hey, what do I know? :roll:

RTM
Posts: 356
Joined: 07 Apr 2013, 00:27

Re: Brussels Airlines' fleet renewal

Post by RTM »

Flanker2 wrote:Well RTM, I won't try to convince you.
But you give it a go anyway... :)
It is true lessors don't keep track of individual LRU's. As a matter of fact, they don'tkeep track of anything other then the lease payments. Untill it is time to redeliver. Then they come to eveluate and inspect the aircraft. And believe me,that is done thouroughly. And everything is checked against the redilivery conditions layed out by contract. And yes, there are "on condition" components, and no, it does not really affect the redilivery condition as long as they are in good condition. But no serious airline is structurally going to swap these out with other aircraft in the fleet. Maybe to a limited degree, but certainly not to the scale you are talking about.

And yes, depending on the contract, lessors really may want their own engines etc back on their plane.
Flanker2 wrote:Do you think that there are work card for lost tools on D-checks?
Ehhh... YES! Mandatory per EASA Part 145! Every base maintenance input, no matter if it is a D-check or just a routine thing, has a task issued in the workpack to make sure ALL tools are accounted for. If this task is nt signed at the end of the work, the maintenance can not be released.
Flanker2 wrote:But hey, what do I know? :roll:
... ehhh... :lol:

Airbus A330

Re: Brussels Airlines' fleet renewal

Post by Airbus A330 »

crew1990 wrote:And for next year what can we explect, as the SSP and the SFM shoulb be leaving, if we consider that Brussels Airlines will add indeed those A319, A320 and A330 expected, it will look like...
Wasn't OO-SSP leaving the fleet in September?

RTM
Posts: 356
Joined: 07 Apr 2013, 00:27

Re: Brussels Airlines' fleet renewal

Post by RTM »

Airbus A330 wrote:
crew1990 wrote:And for next year what can we explect, as the SSP and the SFM shoulb be leaving, if we consider that Brussels Airlines will add indeed those A319, A320 and A330 expected, it will look like...
Wasn't OO-SSP leaving the fleet in September?
Correct. But my guess is that aircraft that will leave the fleet this fall, will mostly only be replaced next spring. That way some money is saved over the winter when less aircraft are required.

Flanker2
Posts: 1729
Joined: 05 Dec 2012, 23:15

Re: Brussels Airlines' fleet renewal

Post by Flanker2 »

Ehhh... YES! Mandatory per EASA Part 145! Every base maintenance input, no matter if it is a D-check or just a routine thing, has a task issued in the workpack to make sure ALL tools are accounted for. If this task is nt signed at the end of the work, the maintenance can not be released.
So according to you a closing-up task card, or end of task inspection/check is the same as a specific task to look for a specific tool? :roll: A task to look for a specific tool, as the earlier poster was implying, is subject to a maintenance/findings report and are part of unscheduled tasks, while the tasks you are refering to are scheduled tasks.
Do you know the difference? Apparently not.

Oh and by the way, after a heavy maintenance check, the closing up tasks are routinely stamped without any checks.
What do you expect, that they check everyone's toolboxes at the end of the C-check, and tear the aircraft apart if there's one missing? Oh and by the way, as mentionned earlier, forgotten tools are just one problem, common foreign objects like excess or removed consumables and parts that aren't tracked are also commonly forgotten during maintenance. Not to mention other contaminants like sheet metal shavings, rags, dust, fluids of all kind from lubricants, fuels, hydraulic fluids, cleaning fluids, solvents, water, etc...
Were you asleep during your EWIS course?

In fact, to go more in depth, this is one of the reasons why aircraft need periodic weighing.
An aircraft, depending on its size, tends to gain from dozens to hundreds of kilograms of weight over its lifetime, due to accumulation of all these foreign objects. That by itself impacts the efficiency of the aircraft, besides all the undesired effects like short-circuits and flight control issues mentionned earlier.

RTM
Posts: 356
Joined: 07 Apr 2013, 00:27

Re: Brussels Airlines' fleet renewal

Post by RTM »

Why am I wasting my time on you...? Again...

You clearly have no idea what an aircraft maintenance enviroment looks like. Throwing terms like EWIS around only prove the opposite in your case. Look a bit further next time you google something, it has nothing to do with lost tools. Maybe at Flanker Aircraft Maintenance, tool checks aren't taken seriously, in the rest of the places it is. The places I have seen and worked in any case.

Your last statement is just hilarious. Yes aircraft are periodically weighed, no, not because they need to be corrected for all the tooling Flanker Aircraft Maintenance has left behind... And yes, I do know sometimes a tool is missed afterall. The system is not watertight, but it IS taken very seriously.

Btw, I was not referring to scheduled maintenance, that's your interpretation of it. I was referring to base maintenance. That is not the same. Google it...

Anyway, lets leave it at this, and stick to SN's fleet renewal. Tnx.

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KriVa
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Re: Brussels Airlines' fleet renewal

Post by KriVa »

Let's just keep it on topic, guys. If you'd like to go for some "friendly" banter, we have the luchtzak pub sub forum.
Thomas

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CTBke
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Re: Brussels Airlines' fleet renewal

Post by CTBke »

OO-TCQ is getting ready to be operational as from June, not sure if they'll change the registration though ..

https://instagram.com/p/2_V36BTHMI/
OO-SSP is due to leave the fleet at the end of the year depending on the leasing contract ( I know they say this for years that SSP is going to leave the fleet) but for now it'll be after the summer season .. to be confirmed :)
Citybird
The flying dream

Avroflyer

Re: Brussels Airlines' fleet renewal

Post by Avroflyer »

CTBke wrote:OO-TCQ is getting ready to be operational as from June, not sure if they'll change the registration though ..

https://instagram.com/p/2_V36BTHMI/
OO-SSP is due to leave the fleet at the end of the year depending on the leasing contract ( I know they say this for years that SSP is going to leave the fleet) but for now it'll be after the summer season .. to be confirmed :)
OO-TCQ will keep it's registration ( apparently it's cheaper to use the same registration rather than changing it )

RTM
Posts: 356
Joined: 07 Apr 2013, 00:27

Re: Brussels Airlines' fleet renewal

Post by RTM »

TCQ will operate as TCQ for now. Appearantly it is possible to change the registration under the Belgial law, but certain conditions have to be met. One of those is that the Original registration (TCQ) needs to be on there for a minimum amount of time. Don't know exactly how long, but TCQ is not there yet. So maybe in the future it wiil still change, but for now it will be TCQ.

Airbus A330

Re: Brussels Airlines' fleet renewal

Post by Airbus A330 »

RTM wrote:Correct. But my guess is that aircraft that will leave the fleet this fall, will mostly only be replaced next spring. That way some money is saved over the winter when less aircraft are required.
Thank you, RTM! ;)

Bel33
Posts: 137
Joined: 18 Feb 2012, 18:36

Re: Brussels Airlines' fleet renewal

Post by Bel33 »

I'm surprised to read on Airfleet that an Avro RJ85 (ex OO-DJR stored since 2012 and returned to lessor) is now due to SN... Somebody can confirm or not this information?

SFM
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Joined: 11 Jan 2013, 17:21

Re: Brussels Airlines' fleet renewal

Post by SFM »

Bel33 wrote:I'm surprised to read on Airfleet that an Avro RJ85 (ex OO-DJR stored since 2012 and returned to lessor) is now due to SN... Somebody can confirm or not this information?
When viewing the page of OO-DJR (http://www.airfleets.net/ficheapp/plane-bae146-2290.htm), it is mentioned that it is due to enter in service with Summit Air, however it also says 'due' in the Brussels Airlines row. My guess is that there was some sort of mixup. I really don't think SN is taking back any RJ85 from storage ;)

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KriVa
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Re: Brussels Airlines' fleet renewal

Post by KriVa »

I don't think adding RJs to the fleet would be beneficial for SN's future. Especially with the talks of phasing them out that have been going on for the last few years.
Thomas

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RoMax
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Re: Brussels Airlines' fleet renewal

Post by RoMax »

This is just a mistake from airfleets, unless it must be a very temporary thing to back up something, but I doubt it very much.

Passenger
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Joined: 06 Dec 2010, 20:54

Re: Brussels Airlines' fleet renewal

Post by Passenger »

RoMax wrote:This is just a mistake from airfleets, unless it must be a very temporary thing to back up something, but I doubt it very much.
Indeed. OO-DJR is now G-CHFR http://www.falko.com/fleet.asp and new owner/lessor will be Summit Air (Yellowknife), http://flysummitair.com/fleet/avro-rj85-passenger-jet/

ex OO-DJY is already flying for Summit Air as C-FLRJ:
http://www.airfleets.net/ficheapp/plane-bae146-2302.htm


Avroflyer

Re: Brussels Airlines' fleet renewal

Post by Avroflyer »

CTBke wrote:hoera ! another new addition to the fleet... will it keep the 180 TCAB seats ?
TCQ is configured in our standard 168Y layout ;)

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CTBke
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Re: Brussels Airlines' fleet renewal

Post by CTBke »

thanks, just read the mail ;-) looking forward to fly on it very soon
Citybird
The flying dream

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