Can't wait to compare the fares between Korongo and its competitors...
Has SN ever done something that ambitious (I mean including during the SABENA era) ? Has LH ever done something similar ? I believe they've been heavily involved in airline developments in South America but at a time when the JARs/EU-OPS/EASA requirements didn't exist yet.
Nice challenge... but the price tag is even nicer ! 'Really curious to see how many in DRC will be able to afford a ticket.
Korongo Airlines: THE END
Moderator: Latest news team
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tolipanebas
- Posts: 2442
- Joined: 12 May 2004, 00:00
Re: Korongo Airlines
I don't think they are going after the masses really: quality always has a price, so don't expect them to compete on this: westerners will stand in line to fly a safe and relilable airline over any of the EU blacklisted airlines.TCAS_climb wrote:Can't wait to compare the fares between Korongo and its competitors...
Really curious to see how many in DRC will be able to afford a ticket.
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TCAS_climb
- Posts: 413
- Joined: 04 Jan 2004, 00:00
Re: Korongo Airlines
Hence the curiosity. I'm wondering whether there will be enough westerners, easterners, northerners and southerners to generate profits, especially when you consider the money injected in this project. Perhaps the idea of making money out of Korongo is not even a top priority? As long as the feeder grabs all possible passengers from the region into the BruAir long-hauls flights (recouping some of the feeder's losses) of course...
Actually this will probably be a world first: AFAIK the aviation industry has never seen several "domestic" airlines competing against each other where one of them had a clearly stronger safety case in its favor. Let's see if pax choose higher safety over lower fares. Westerners currently stand in line to fly the unsafe, unreliable and blacklisted airlines of DRC because there's no alternative. They know the risk, nervously laugh about it but board the plane anyway. Will they really switch lanes to fly Korongo? Yes it depends on the gap between the fares, but at this point I still wouldn't bet money on any of the two possibilities of that question.
By the way, isn't the BCAA actively involved in putting the Congolese CAA back on its feet (since its collapse was one of the major factors in the blacklisting of DRC)? I mean in addition to the delegation of regulatory oversight on Korongo, of course.
Actually this will probably be a world first: AFAIK the aviation industry has never seen several "domestic" airlines competing against each other where one of them had a clearly stronger safety case in its favor. Let's see if pax choose higher safety over lower fares. Westerners currently stand in line to fly the unsafe, unreliable and blacklisted airlines of DRC because there's no alternative. They know the risk, nervously laugh about it but board the plane anyway. Will they really switch lanes to fly Korongo? Yes it depends on the gap between the fares, but at this point I still wouldn't bet money on any of the two possibilities of that question.
By the way, isn't the BCAA actively involved in putting the Congolese CAA back on its feet (since its collapse was one of the major factors in the blacklisting of DRC)? I mean in addition to the delegation of regulatory oversight on Korongo, of course.
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tolipanebas
- Posts: 2442
- Joined: 12 May 2004, 00:00
Re: Korongo Airlines
Yes they are and guess what, 'coincidentally' the BCAA have selected Korongo as lead project in their global plan to assist the Congolese Authorities in (re)building administrative and technical skills to overview their own airlines, since Korongo officially is a Congolese airline. However, due to the fact all of its operations are going to be conducted by SN under an ACMI lease, I wouldn't be surprised to see Korongo being exempted from the EU blacklist as from its launch (or very soon thereafter).TCAS_climb wrote:By the way, isn't the BCAA actively involved in putting the Congolese CAA back on its feet (since its collapse was one of the major factors in the blacklisting of DRC)? I mean in addition to the delegation of regulatory oversight on Korongo, of course.
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TCAS_climb
- Posts: 413
- Joined: 04 Jan 2004, 00:00
Re: Korongo Airlines
Why should Korongo be blacklisted if it's entirely under the operational control of SN (EASA Part 145 maintenance, JAR-FCL crews, EASA continuing airworthiness management, BCAA oversight, etc.)? Even Hewa Bora flew to Europe when they leased an aircraft from RAK Airways.
Just thinking out loud here... If indeed the Congolese CAA beefs up its capabilities to the point of convincing the EU to "whitelist" Korongo, then why bother keeping the operations under SN's air operator certificate?
a) as a back-up plan if the CAA doesn't perform as expected (damage control to Korongo's planning)
b) errr...
c) errr... any other valid reason???
I don't know who will be in charge of airworthiness/maintenance and security for Korongo, but I wish them good luck and a lot of patience!
Just thinking out loud here... If indeed the Congolese CAA beefs up its capabilities to the point of convincing the EU to "whitelist" Korongo, then why bother keeping the operations under SN's air operator certificate?
a) as a back-up plan if the CAA doesn't perform as expected (damage control to Korongo's planning)
b) errr...
c) errr... any other valid reason???
I don't know who will be in charge of airworthiness/maintenance and security for Korongo, but I wish them good luck and a lot of patience!
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NCB
Re: Korongo Airlines
Funny, funny.
EU blacklist here, EU blacklist there, but since when is Congo in EU airspace?
If I'm a Congolese airline that flies only in Congo and neighbouring countries, I don't care if I'm on the EU blacklist.
Korongo may be taken off that list but why should any other Congolese airlines try to get off that list?
To add fuel to the fire, the EU blacklist is a way of segregating airlines of third world countries. Why did they even bother putting airlines that never asked to fly to the EU on that list? Did they audit each and every airline separately?
The EU blacklist is not the reason why SN needs to operate for Korongo.
The reason why Korongo needs to be operated by SN is because of insurance: there are no crews and engineers trained to standards in DRC and you can't trust the local corruption. If you want to sell safety, you need to operate on a European model with professionalism and high standards and the operation should be covered by an insurance policy that protects the airline, its staff and its passengers against eventual calamities.
Right now there is no airline in Congo with an insurance policy. When a crash happens, they just change the company names and continue business as usual.
Korongo will be a safe airline that operates to high European standards and many people who are already paying very high fares will pay a little more to fly safe with Korongo. If operated with a complex fare structure in 2 classes, Korongo could sell a few seats to less rich people as well. Although most of the business will be from international feeding, local and foreign businessmen and workers, I think that poor people who save up months of salary to get a ticket for the yearly visit to their family in their hometown, should also be given the chance to benefit from a safe flight.
EU blacklist here, EU blacklist there, but since when is Congo in EU airspace?
If I'm a Congolese airline that flies only in Congo and neighbouring countries, I don't care if I'm on the EU blacklist.
Korongo may be taken off that list but why should any other Congolese airlines try to get off that list?
To add fuel to the fire, the EU blacklist is a way of segregating airlines of third world countries. Why did they even bother putting airlines that never asked to fly to the EU on that list? Did they audit each and every airline separately?
The EU blacklist is not the reason why SN needs to operate for Korongo.
The reason why Korongo needs to be operated by SN is because of insurance: there are no crews and engineers trained to standards in DRC and you can't trust the local corruption. If you want to sell safety, you need to operate on a European model with professionalism and high standards and the operation should be covered by an insurance policy that protects the airline, its staff and its passengers against eventual calamities.
Right now there is no airline in Congo with an insurance policy. When a crash happens, they just change the company names and continue business as usual.
Korongo will be a safe airline that operates to high European standards and many people who are already paying very high fares will pay a little more to fly safe with Korongo. If operated with a complex fare structure in 2 classes, Korongo could sell a few seats to less rich people as well. Although most of the business will be from international feeding, local and foreign businessmen and workers, I think that poor people who save up months of salary to get a ticket for the yearly visit to their family in their hometown, should also be given the chance to benefit from a safe flight.
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airazurxtror
- Posts: 3769
- Joined: 17 Nov 2005, 00:00
Re: Korongo Airlines
I guess the other Congoles airlines won't be happy to see Korongo arrive and take away their best customers ...
This could mean some difficulties and unpleasantness for Korongo, not including sabotage, I trust.
This could mean some difficulties and unpleasantness for Korongo, not including sabotage, I trust.
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TCAS_climb
- Posts: 413
- Joined: 04 Jan 2004, 00:00
Re: Korongo Airlines
Not really, in my opinion. Your reputation goes down the drain, that's one thing (supposing you had a good reputation in the first place). But then as a blacklisted operator you can also forget about codeshare agreements with "whitelisted" operators. That's probably an embarrassing point for SN/LH that motivated their current plans.If I'm a Congolese airline that flies only in Congo and neighbouring countries, I don't care if I'm on the EU blacklist.
I'm not too familiar with the IOSA audits but it seems to me that in theory you can pass the audit even if you're blacklisted. In which case I don't see why the insurance would be a problem for a "blacklisted Korongo". It would probably be comparatively more expensive than for SN or LH, but not impossible.
I didn't check recently to see how far the project progressed, but there was an EU project to forbid EU travel agents from selling tickets on blacklisted airlines. The blacklist is not just about protecting EU skies and assets on the ground, but also about protecting EU citizens from crap airlines all over the world. Perhaps someone more knowledgeable than me on the subject could give us an update on that project.
I don't see the problem of punishing -through the blacklist- the rogue airlines that don't respect the minimum standards. In the end everybody wins. It may not impress Congolese airlines but it did motivate Indonesia to hit the after-burners and quickly improve its airline industry.
The reaction of Congolese airlines will greatly vary depending on Korongo's network. The turboprop operators going to small airports won't see the problem. Others like C.A.A. which just introduced the A320 will probably feel more uncomfortable. And then there's a big question mark about the Congolese CAA. Once they're up to speed on ICAO requirements how will they deal with their embarrassing "regulatees"?
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NCB
Re: Korongo Airlines
You just need to look at Indonesia to find the answer. Only airlines that plan on flying to Europe care, the others do what they want. That's what Garuda did, most other airlines are still on the blacklist and 2009 was the worst year for Indonedia in terms of safety record. There's still much work left to do but to have a decent air transport infrastructure, you must first have a decent economy. Building a first tier airline isn't quite the same as opening a barber shop.
Most people who are going to switch over to Korongo won't need the EU blacklist assurance to know that a Lufthansa and SN subsidiary operated by SN is going to be safer.
It's absurd to tell a potential customer who is flying from Lubumbashi to Goma that Korongo is the only domestic Congolese airline that is allowed to fly in European airspace even though it never plans to fly there.
All this is based on the absurdity of the EU blacklist: a list banning airlines from flying in EU airspace, that contains domestic airlines of far away third world countries that have never intended nor asked the EU for permission to enter its airspace.
It's like a person you don't know is walking in the streets in front of your house and from your window you shout to him, loudly enough for the entire street to hear: "you are not allowed to enter my house".
Basing arguments on absurdity makes one look like he doesn't know what he's talking about.
Most people who are going to switch over to Korongo won't need the EU blacklist assurance to know that a Lufthansa and SN subsidiary operated by SN is going to be safer.
It's absurd to tell a potential customer who is flying from Lubumbashi to Goma that Korongo is the only domestic Congolese airline that is allowed to fly in European airspace even though it never plans to fly there.
All this is based on the absurdity of the EU blacklist: a list banning airlines from flying in EU airspace, that contains domestic airlines of far away third world countries that have never intended nor asked the EU for permission to enter its airspace.
It's like a person you don't know is walking in the streets in front of your house and from your window you shout to him, loudly enough for the entire street to hear: "you are not allowed to enter my house".
Basing arguments on absurdity makes one look like he doesn't know what he's talking about.
Re: Korongo Airlines
NCB are you really that retarded? Hasn't the idea sprung up in you that the blacklist is there for the EUROPEAN CITIZENS, so they know what airlines to avoid/use when going abroad....NCB wrote:You just need to look at Indonesia to find the answer. Only airlines that plan on flying to Europe care, the others do what they want. That's what Garuda did, most other airlines are still on the blacklist and 2009 was the worst year for Indonedia in terms of safety record. There's still much work left to do but to have a decent air transport infrastructure, you must first have a decent economy. Building a first tier airline isn't quite the same as opening a barber shop.
Most people who are going to switch over to Korongo won't need the EU blacklist assurance to know that a Lufthansa and SN subsidiary operated by SN is going to be safer.
It's absurd to tell a potential customer who is flying from Lubumbashi to Goma that Korongo is the only domestic Congolese airline that is allowed to fly in European airspace even though it never plans to fly there.
All this is based on the absurdity of the EU blacklist: a list banning airlines from flying in EU airspace, that contains domestic airlines of far away third world countries that have never intended nor asked the EU for permission to enter its airspace.
It's like a person you don't know is walking in the streets in front of your house and from your window you shout to him, loudly enough for the entire street to hear: "you are not allowed to enter my house".
Basing arguments on absurdity makes one look like he doesn't know what he's talking about.
what the hell is wrong with you
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NCB
Re: Korongo Airlines
http://ec.europa.eu/transport/air-ban/list_en.htm
To improve safety in Europe further, the European Commission – in consultation with Member States’ aviation safety authorities – has decided to ban airlines found to be unsafe from operating in European airspace.
It says nowhere that said list is published for EU citizens to avoid flying them. Does it make any sense, if you ban entire countries whose airlines are the only option to most smaller domestic cities and towns?
Also, to Congolese and Indonesian or other third world country passengers which represent the vast majority of travellers on their domestic air traffic routes, it doesn't matter at all if the airline they fly with is not allowed to fly to Europe, it comes down to picking an airline that flies to where they need to be and whether or not they can afford to fly with it.
Either way it doesn't make sense to say that Korongo's success will be based on it not being on the EU blacklist.
To improve safety in Europe further, the European Commission – in consultation with Member States’ aviation safety authorities – has decided to ban airlines found to be unsafe from operating in European airspace.
It says nowhere that said list is published for EU citizens to avoid flying them. Does it make any sense, if you ban entire countries whose airlines are the only option to most smaller domestic cities and towns?
Also, to Congolese and Indonesian or other third world country passengers which represent the vast majority of travellers on their domestic air traffic routes, it doesn't matter at all if the airline they fly with is not allowed to fly to Europe, it comes down to picking an airline that flies to where they need to be and whether or not they can afford to fly with it.
Either way it doesn't make sense to say that Korongo's success will be based on it not being on the EU blacklist.
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TCAS_climb
- Posts: 413
- Joined: 04 Jan 2004, 00:00
Re: Korongo Airlines
Not everyone sees the logic behind the SAFA inspections and EU blacklist, nor the benefits of putting both the blacklisted operators and their national CAA under pressure, ok fine. There's no point beating a dead horse, so let's move on.
Even if the company standards and the safety performance are at least similar to SN or LH (good luck, guys!), Korongo can't afford to be blacklisted on purely administrative grounds. Otherwise the whole marketing effort on the quality and safety of the product vanishes into thin air. How do you justify to westerners (and all the other -erners) but also to Congolese pax to pay a steeper fare if there's a big "blacklisted" stamp on the aircraft tail?
Oh, one more thing... I'd love to hear more about continuing airworthiness management and EASA Part-145 compliance at Korongo. How will they deal with that "little" issue?
Here, I have to object. All the EU asks, is that foreign operators meet the minimum requirements of ICAO. It's the absolute minimum. Safety is seriously at risk if you operate below that bottom level. And I care if people take unnecessary risk by flying with rogue airlines, even a half-world away from me. Yes, it matters... Well, at least to me.it doesn't matter at all if the airline they fly with is not allowed to fly to Europe
Even if the company standards and the safety performance are at least similar to SN or LH (good luck, guys!), Korongo can't afford to be blacklisted on purely administrative grounds. Otherwise the whole marketing effort on the quality and safety of the product vanishes into thin air. How do you justify to westerners (and all the other -erners) but also to Congolese pax to pay a steeper fare if there's a big "blacklisted" stamp on the aircraft tail?
Oh, one more thing... I'd love to hear more about continuing airworthiness management and EASA Part-145 compliance at Korongo. How will they deal with that "little" issue?
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tolipanebas
- Posts: 2442
- Joined: 12 May 2004, 00:00
Re: Korongo Airlines
Because there's going to be a maintenance base set up at FBM which is going to be up to EASA Part 145 standards and staffed solely by Belgian technicians... the (heavy maintenance) things that can't be done there, will be done in BRU (by SN) or JNB by an EASA certfied contractor. SN/Forest are currently setting up a maintenance hangar and building inventory at FBM for this very purpose.TCAS_climb wrote:I'd love to hear more about continuing airworthiness management and EASA Part-145 compliance at Korongo. How will they deal with that "little" issue?
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TCAS_climb
- Posts: 413
- Joined: 04 Jan 2004, 00:00
Re: Korongo Airlines
Hmmm... It's getting even more expensive than I initially thought. 
Profitability is expected for... 2040 ?
Profitability is expected for... 2040 ?
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HighInTheSky
- Posts: 426
- Joined: 29 Aug 2008, 12:58
Re: Korongo Airlines
I'm afraid this whole operation is not about profit, but about prestige... At least, that's the impression I had when I talked with Meyfroidt...TCAS_climb wrote:Hmmm... It's getting even more expensive than I initially thought.
Profitability is expected for... 2040 ?
Re: Korongo Airlines
Korongo will deliver high yields.
Businessman from all over the world come to Congo for investing in minerals.
Hence that Forest is involved. And they will pay big money, as it's the company that pays & not just some tourist.
Businessman from all over the world come to Congo for investing in minerals.
Hence that Forest is involved. And they will pay big money, as it's the company that pays & not just some tourist.
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jan_olieslagers
- Posts: 3059
- Joined: 24 Jun 2006, 08:34
- Location: Vl.Brabant
- Contact:
Re: Korongo Airlines
[OT nitpicking] the businessman involved is called FORREST rather than FOREST. Correct spelling helps a lot when searching the www.
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tolipanebas
- Posts: 2442
- Joined: 12 May 2004, 00:00
Re: Korongo Airlines
What did you expect then? That SN would just let their planes leave BRU fully up to standards, yet be unairworthy within weeks due to maintenance actions done on them locally by uncertified technicians, all while operating under their very own Belgian AOC????TCAS_climb wrote:Hmmm... It's getting even more expensive than I initially thought.
This is indeed going to be a BIG project, with lots of Belgians permanently involved in situ, not only the overhead, but also pilots, cabin crew, technicians as well as BCAA inspectors, and for that purpose the new airline (or rather the Forrest Group) is setting up a new compound in a suburb of Lubumbashi to provide comfortable and secure housing for the many staff and family that will work on the project....
SN is basically setting up a complete self-supporting second base next to BRU, in one of the most desolated places on earth and so obviously there's a lot of infrastructure currently being built at FBM, or did you really think they needed so long just to pick a name, a livery and ferry the planes out?
The total investment quoted for Korongo is said to be about 10M dollars, although due to the complicated set-up of the airline, with a holding company holding 70% of the Korongo shares, split out unevenly between SN [majority share] and Forrest [minority share], while the remaining 30% of the airline are in the hands of local investors, it is not completely clear to me if this $10M relates to just the holding company, or rather the airline, but anyway, it is indeed some serious money...
However, this project definitely is about making money, not just about prestige, hence the presence of GFI which basically owns Lubumbashi as well as the formal go-ahead from Lufthansa, which will have to pay the bills in a couple of years. The last thing Lufthansa would want is to have a lossmaking central-African airline on their ballance sheet, I should think?
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TCAS_climb
- Posts: 413
- Joined: 04 Jan 2004, 00:00
Re: Korongo Airlines
Considering the state of the economy and the airline industry in particular, and especially in Europe, I find it quite adventurous to inject so much money in that region of the world.
The current approach is very generous toward DRC. SN and the BCAA help clean the infamous mess after decades of dereliction, mismanagement and abuses, then the 'mundele' pay the enormous bills. That's perhaps (at last) good news for Central African pax, we'll see. It couldn't get much worse anyway, so any effort is welcome.
It would actually be a much better news if Korongo had a lot of Congolese staff at the 'sharp end' (mechanics, pilots & cabin crew). It's not possible right away, ok fine. Let's see how things evolve. If Korongo's business model is copy-pasted from an South African airline that operated during the aparheid, this is going nowhere in the long run, regardless of the load factors and the profit margin (if any). The handover and empowerment of local staff has to start asap otherwise Korongo will crumble under its production costs while the competitors slowly improve their quality/safety levels.
I probably lost track of the aircraft type selected. The Avro is out but the 737 is in, correct?
The current approach is very generous toward DRC. SN and the BCAA help clean the infamous mess after decades of dereliction, mismanagement and abuses, then the 'mundele' pay the enormous bills. That's perhaps (at last) good news for Central African pax, we'll see. It couldn't get much worse anyway, so any effort is welcome.
It would actually be a much better news if Korongo had a lot of Congolese staff at the 'sharp end' (mechanics, pilots & cabin crew). It's not possible right away, ok fine. Let's see how things evolve. If Korongo's business model is copy-pasted from an South African airline that operated during the aparheid, this is going nowhere in the long run, regardless of the load factors and the profit margin (if any). The handover and empowerment of local staff has to start asap otherwise Korongo will crumble under its production costs while the competitors slowly improve their quality/safety levels.
I probably lost track of the aircraft type selected. The Avro is out but the 737 is in, correct?