Air India or Jet Airways, who will join Star Alliance?

[Boeing767copilot]

Jet Airways may not join Star Alliance

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/jet-a ... ce/993545/

[kiwiandrew]

As if the picture wasn't already confused enough...

http://www.livemint.com/2012/08/2819551 ... s.html?h=B

New Delhi: The civil aviation ministry has approved a strategic alliance between Jet Airways (India) Ltd, the country’s largest airline by passengers carried, and Deutsche Lufthansa AG that will enable them to sell seats across each other’s networks, in the process pushing state-owned Air India deeper into the red.

The blanket approval for the code-sharing arrangement between Jet and the German airline could be a step towards the Indian carrier joining Star Alliance, the world’s largest airline network.

[webstermc]

This quote is not good...:

...and could even relocate its existing European hub from Brussels to the Lufthansa-fed Munich or Frankfurt, said a foreign airline executive who asked not to be identified.

[kookongsi]

Actually it doesn't bother me anymore wether 9W move their hub to Germany or not: there's not much left of the hub anymore, and I still think that in every case they will keep the BOM flight, and maybe the DEL flight too.

[tolipanebas]

My personal opinion is that 9W will join STAR Alliance next year and be persuaded to move their BRU 'hub' to MUC. As others have already said, their 'hub' in BRU isn't much of a hub any longer, if it ever was one to start with: as from this winter, it will be down to 3 India flights connecting to 2 transatlantic flights, that's all!

Long gone are their big plans to add ORD, SFO, LAX, etc. for the simple reason it's really not obvious any longer to be operating transatlantic long haul flights between airports where you aren't a strong home carrier; see AA and their cancelled JFK-BRU, citing exactly the same reason.

By moving to MUC and teaming up with Lufthansa, 9W can connect to tens of transatlantic flights of LH to destinations they can now only dream of and pretty much cover every North American city without having to operate to any of those transatlantic destinations themselves, all while focussing on additional and far more natural India-MUC legs.

If STAR Alliance plays this well, both LH and 9W can very effectively combat Gulf carriers like EK by offering 1-stop flights from pretty much everywhere in India to everywhere in North America (something neither LH or 9W can on their own) and even outdo the Gulf airlines on the Canadian destinations!

A 9W/LH combo is something that will seriously hurt EK and QR, and that BA won't like to see very much either and THAT's what it is all about: the euroconnect is just to fill the empty seats remaining and let's be honnest: European coverage is just as good through MUC than it is through BRU, to the exception of secundary UK destinations like BRS, NCL or EDI (no coverage) and BHX (less coverage), hence I believe 9W will be quick to switch BRU for MUC to the exception of a daily BOM on A332.

[convair]

And their dropping the Newark and Toronto flights could be a good opportunity for both AC and SN, although most pax on these flight start their journey in India I guess.

[sn26567]

There is just one problem with MUC: the opposition of the population to a third runway that is needed to allow expansion (see this topic).

If even Lufthansa cannot accommodate its own planes in Munich, why would Jet Airways be allowed to create a hub there?

[tolipanebas]

And their dropping the Newark and Toronto flights could be a good opportunity for both AC and SN, although most pax on these flight start their journey in India I guess.

Yes indeed, but don't forget that transatlantic routes within STAR alliance shouldn't be looked upon from an individual airline's perspective, but are governed by a transatlantic joint venture, called A++, with revenues of all transatlantic flights shared amongst all relevant participants to this joint venture, being UA, AC, LH, LX, OS and SN.

9W potentially dropping their EWR and YYR would be welcome news for A++ as it would pull non-A++ capacity off the transatlantic market from BRU and would thus make it easier to launch a bunch of new transatlantic A++ flights, like for instance an evening flight to NYC (my bet would be a UA operated flight to EWR), or more immediately even to persuade AC to turn its current YYR-YUL-BRU into a direct YYR-BRU and to see SN finally start YUL-BRU, all under the A++ umbrella of course.

It's all pure speculation at present, but it is definitely interesting to see how 9W is nowhere mentioned as future A++ member in all this, hinting at the fact that the highdays of operating transatlantic flights via scissor hubs are likely over, be it in BRU or MUC.

[convair]

Re MUC and its "future" third runway, I don't quite understand why it is so badly needed whilst Heathrow can manage with 2. Am I wrong somewhere?

[tolipanebas]

Re MUC and its "future" third runway, I don't quite understand why it is so badly needed whilst Heathrow can manage with 2. Am I wrong somewhere?

MUC doesn't really need an extra RWY right now, nor tomorrow, but it may very well need it in a couple of years time, especially in light of what is being discussed here above, with MUC being turned into a true North America to India gate way.

However, let's not get carried away here: provided 9W indeed moves from BRU to MUC, it looks like it plans to drop all of the second legs to North America, so we aren't talking such a big operation any longer: just 3 flights, 2 of the 3 serving destinations which LH already operates to from MUC today and may thus see flight consolidation in return for the 9W transatlantic feed they are getting.

I am sure there's sufficient capacity left at MUC for a few additional flights to new places in India and if not, it won't take long to convince LH to make room by reworking their shorthaul flights at MUC; in the absolute worste case, there's always nearby ZRH to re-route those shorthaul flights too.

[convair]

Thank you tolipanebas.

Flight consolidation, as you mention it, might mean using bigger a/cs on some of these transatlantic routes. If I remember well LH has a few A380 coming.

[convair]

And a big number of B748s as well.

[tolipanebas]

Thank you tolipanebas.

Flight consolidation, as you mention it, might mean using bigger a/cs on some of these transatlantic routes. If I remember well LH has a few A380 coming.

I think it is becoming clearer every day that we can kiss goodbye to the days when you could fly transatlantic from pretty much every medium sized airport on several airlines even, often on 757s; with operating costs rising skyhigh due to exploding fuel prices, every seat offered really needs to be filled now and that can only be done successfully if the flight connects to at least 1 and preferably 2 hubs, ideally with a plane with a CASM as low as possible and thus a seatcount as high as possible, so yes indeed, the A380 and 748i are 2 very important planes to Lufthansa, especially as it wants to tap even more into the India to North America market which it is already market leader on today and where it sees ever more competition from Emirates and their 'biggies' which it absolutely wants to fight off: 9W will be a very useful partner at the Indian end of the line for that.

[kiwiandrew]

Re MUC and its "future" third runway, I don't quite understand why it is so badly needed whilst Heathrow can manage with 2. Am I wrong somewhere?

LHR can't 'manage' with 2, it is seriously restricted by only having 2.

[convair]

I know it's a bit hectic at times and that they have been crying for a third runway which the greens don't want, but still LHR does manage with its 2 runways and it is one of the busiest airports in Europe.

[sn26567]

Jet Airways Star Alliance membership facing strong Air India opposition

Jet Airways (9W) is facing headwinds with its plan to join Star Alliance with competitor Air India (AI) in strong opposition of the plans given the still unresolved dispute between the alliance and state owned national carrier with Star Alliance claiming Air India would not been allowed to join Star Alliance as it would not meet minimum joining requirements.

According to a report by Livemint, Star Alliance had already been pushing the Indian government and Air India to accept a future membership of Jet Airways in the alliance since 2011 before the Air India application to join has been put on hold.

Source: CH-Aviation

[Bralo20]

According to a report by Livemint, Star Alliance had already been pushing the Indian government and Air India to accept a future membership of Jet Airways in the alliance since 2011 before the Air India application to join has been put on hold.

Source: CH-Aviation

This is in fact correct, however, even before Air India was invited by Star Alliance the government of India had agreed to allow 2 indian carriers of decent size into Star Alliance, this in fact was part of the requirements of Air India joining Star Alliance in the first place. The government accepted this term on condition that AI would be allowed first to enter.

When the end of the deadline arrived Star Alliance wanted to get insurrance that Jet Airways would indeed be allowed joining and wanted this in writing (Joining Star Alliance requires a unanimous vote, so the fear of Star Alliance that Air India would veto the joining of Jet Airways was more then justified). AFAIK the government agreed to this however Air India wouldn't play along and thus the results are known. Despite several sources saying that Air India was fully compliant to the requierments they weren't allowed joining because AI refused to provide in writing that they wouldn't veto the joining of Jet AIrways.

Air India was dropped completely in the mean time and I guess that the government of India won't object Jet Airways joining Star Alliance at all. I assume it will include a large suitecase with EUR of USD but even with AI making a fuss it won't stop Jet Airways joining Star...

Unless someone finds a bigger suitcase of money at Air India and bribes their bosses at the government to block Jet Airways. But I doubt this will happen. India needs to think about the future and the future includes also private companies like Jet Airways who pay taxes to the government. Years ago they could get away with putting their government run airline on a stand but these days there are to many eyes watching India, to many lawyers ready to sue the hell out of the government if they won't budge...

To bad for Air India but IMHO it would be better if Air India was deald with in a decent way, shut down the company and start over again with a private company instead of a government toy.

[sn26567]

India seeks Lufthansa help for Air India to join Star Alliance, again. Jet can join too.

At the Directors General of Civil Aviation conference being held in New Delhi, India's civil aviation minister, Mr. Ajit Singh said that his ministry would once again seek the help of German carrier Deutsche Lufthansa for Air India to enter (may be re-entry) the Star Alliance. In August, the world's largest grouping of airlines had rejected the national carrier's application to join the network.

The minister also offered a carrot saying, that the ministry was open to Air India and Jet Airways joining the alliance at the same time. The Star Alliance has already invited Jet Airways to become a member, but the private Indian carrier has not yet initiated formal steps to becoming a member.

The Civil Aviation minister told media that Lufthansa, which is the founding member of Star Alliance, was given a lot of benefits to ensure that Air India joins the grouping.

"I believe a lot of facilities were given to the airline (Lufthansa) so that it would mentor Air India to join Star Alliance. They were given a lot of flights, it was made almost open skies for them. Now we are going to talk to Lufthansa to adhere to the plan we had," Singh said.

The Government of India, owner of Air India, gave away national property (bilateral rights to fly) bringing in a lot of Lufthansa flights to India, just to ensure Air India got into the alliance.

Mr. Singh also informed that the ministry was looking at all the existing bilateral Air Services Agreements, and exploring if the limitation of aircraft type could be removed. Such a move would mostly benefit existing middle eastern operators to India Emirates, Qatar Airways, Etihad, along with Singapore Airlines and possibly Lufthansa.

More from Bangalore Aviation

I wonder why Air India insists so much to get into the Star Alliance. Skyteam would be happy to accept them, and even at oneworld there might be an opportunity as Kingfisher is on the verge of collapse.

[bruteboeing]

I think there is alot of cost involved in order to get everything sorted to join an alliance. I think AI spend already much on getting most of the things ready for star and don't really feel like doing it all over again for another alliance ... just my guess uffcourse

[Boeing767copilot]

Jet might get nod to join Star Alliance

http://www.business-standard.com/india/ ... ce/493672/

Etihad linked with big Jet purchase in India

http://www.7daysindubai.com/Etihad-link ... story.html