BRU winter 2010-2011: latest news, routes, airlines

Join this forum to discuss the latest news that happened in the world of commercial aviation.

Moderator: Latest news team

Post Reply
SN1203
Posts: 129
Joined: 20 Sep 2007, 20:11

Re: BRU winter 2010-2011: latest news, routes, airlines

Post by SN1203 »

Atlantis wrote:Finaly SN understood that there was a need to work with waves in their departing schedule.
Could please elaborate on this? You assume that SN doesn't "understand" a wave concept or what? :roll:

User avatar
Atlantis
Posts: 4933
Joined: 12 Apr 2005, 00:00

Re: BRU winter 2010-2011: latest news, routes, airlines

Post by Atlantis »

SN was not attractive enough for foreign carriers because of their schedule. SN is now forced by big carriers to offer an other and more attractive schedule for their pax.

I may hope that SN knows the term "wave" but on the other hand they never experimented with it in the past which is a pity. I'm convinced that we could have seen more foreign carriers in the past when SN arranged an other schedule.

SN1203
Posts: 129
Joined: 20 Sep 2007, 20:11

Re: BRU winter 2010-2011: latest news, routes, airlines

Post by SN1203 »

Thank you for your reply, Atlantis, but I still don't understand what's "new" or why SN has suddenly "realized the need for waves".

Unless I don't understand the word 'wave' myself, I see that SN's network is actually very much structured in waves. So could you please clarify what you are referring to, and what SN has done to trigger your comment? And which other schedule should SN then operate to offer all this connectivity SN currently doesn't offer?

sdbelgium
Posts: 5630
Joined: 10 Aug 2008, 13:32
Location: Gent
Contact:

Re: BRU winter 2010-2011: latest news, routes, airlines

Post by sdbelgium »

Before, there were two waves: early morning and late afternoon/ early evening. Now, with the addition of the extra early afternoon Africa flights, there are three. You can see it attracts new airlines, the Qatar flights arrive at 13.45 local, in the new wave. Of course it should be expanded, this is what Brussels Airlines wants to do in the near future, in cooperation with Brussels Airport. It's a good start, I'd say, and someone needs to take the initiative.

User avatar
tolipanebas
Posts: 2442
Joined: 12 May 2004, 00:00

Re: BRU winter 2010-2011: latest news, routes, airlines

Post by tolipanebas »

SN1203 wrote:Unless I don't understand the word 'wave' myself, I see that SN's network is actually very much structured in waves. So could you please clarify what you are referring to, and what SN has done to trigger your comment? And which other schedule should SN then operate to offer all this connectivity SN currently doesn't offer?
Until recently, SN's schedule was very much a 2 wave concept, with a first wave at around 1030 (ie their long hauls) and another one in the evening at around 1830, both allowing convenient connections throughout the network. To supplement and feed these 2 major waves, there were also 3 smaller waves (first one around 0700, second one just after noon and the thirds one around 1600), but those were merely for the positioning of aircraft and only attractive to O&D traffic or short haul connecting traffic.

The thing with the SN system is that while it definitely had its advantages for SN (it helped fill the long haul flights efficiently and with very low frequencies), it also made the airport unattractive to most foreign airlines after 1000, something which was obvious at the B pier: it's virtually completely empty after lunch time, whereas it put much stress on the infrastructure during the peak hours (morning hours are HELL at BRU, with no spare gates left!)

In relation with BAC, SN has now decided to shift some of its long haul departures (and the most important connecting flights) to early afternoon, thus creating some sort of a third wave (albeit a small one) and as such extending the time of attractiveness of the airport. Ideally, this third wave should be enhanced in future (with a 6th A330?) and manage to attract more intercontinental flights in the off peak hours.

The new concept is proof BRU can't do it without help of a strong home carrier: both airport and airline are condemned to working together for their growth plans, which is why it was so sad to see how BRU had projects which were undermining its home carrier (like the low cost terminal) in the past, or why it is so depressing to see the government still doesn't grasp the importance of having a strong home carrier.....

Let's hope the new concept indeed brings some fruits for BRU and SN: I've understood QR is the first airline to be tempted by it, and said to have accepted an off peak slot at BRU?

PS: seems I was beaten in speed... :-)

SN1203
Posts: 129
Joined: 20 Sep 2007, 20:11

Re: BRU winter 2010-2011: latest news, routes, airlines

Post by SN1203 »

Before, there were two waves: early morning and late afternoon.
Actually, when looking at the SN timetable, there are six waves. For longhaul, there is a second departure wave but the arrival wave remains the same for all flights so your connectivity pretty much sucks in one direction if you believe that a second longhaul departure wave in the early afternoon will attract other carriers in the afternoon.

Also, if I were Qatar Airways, I'd look at my own connectivity in Doha rather than the odd SN Africa flight in the afternoon ;)

sdbelgium
Posts: 5630
Joined: 10 Aug 2008, 13:32
Location: Gent
Contact:

Re: BRU winter 2010-2011: latest news, routes, airlines

Post by sdbelgium »

HighInTheSky wrote:CO 60/61 will be 772 as from end of December until at least April. Maybe the start of year-round CO 772? ;)
Postponed to 04FEB11.

User avatar
Atlantis
Posts: 4933
Joined: 12 Apr 2005, 00:00

Re: BRU winter 2010-2011: latest news, routes, airlines

Post by Atlantis »

SN1203 wrote:Thank you for your reply, Atlantis, but I still don't understand what's "new" or why SN has suddenly "realized the need for waves".

Unless I don't understand the word 'wave' myself, I see that SN's network is actually very much structured in waves. So could you please clarify what you are referring to, and what SN has done to trigger your comment? And which other schedule should SN then operate to offer all this connectivity SN currently doesn't offer?
Hi SN1203,

Maybe I was not clear enough, but I meant a wave in their long haul departures. This is what we now can see with their early afternoon flight.

User avatar
tolipanebas
Posts: 2442
Joined: 12 May 2004, 00:00

Re: BRU winter 2010-2011: latest news, routes, airlines

Post by tolipanebas »

Atlantis wrote:Maybe I was not clear enough, but I meant a wave in their long haul departures. This is what we now can see with their early afternoon flight.
Personally, I don't really know why is such a great idea for SN to shift some long haul flights to early afternoon departures: it means our transfer pax will either have longer ground times in BRU (eg ex TRN, VCE, BIO etc) or SN needs to organise a second connecting flight (eg CDG), so for SN there's really not so much of an advantage to it really, only extra costs and less attractive connectivity....

The only advantage I can see from splitting the still relatively modest long haul wave, is it reduces the load on infrastructure and ground staff at BRU, which is indeed considerable between about 8AM and 11AM. Trying to get something done swiftly, correctly and timely is almost impossible between those times now, especially if you're one of the many unlucky ones to be sent off gate to one of the remote stands, so by shifting some flights to later depature times, the hope is that those remaining will get better service.
Ideally however, ALL flights should be able to be handled simulataneously WITHOUT restrictions, we're talking about just 5 A330s for SN, 6 A330s for 9W and a similar number of transatlantic flights... this is not a morning wave like at FRA or LHR!

By having SN operate some of its long haul flights later on the day, BAC can pretend those hours to be 'interesting times' too, rather than off peak hours like they were before; let's hope it works, because BRU needs to attract more intercontinental connections, especially to Asia. However, BRU should also work it's infrastructure; simply spreading out flights to maximize the use of its present infrastructure is a temporatily solution only, let's hope BAC doesn't sit on it's hands.

BTW, i wonder what SN got from BAC for their willingness to shift some flights to later hours and thus let the capacity of the airport grow 'on the cheap'...

User avatar
RoMax
Posts: 4454
Joined: 20 Jun 2009, 16:32

Re: BRU winter 2010-2011: latest news, routes, airlines

Post by RoMax »

tolipanebas wrote: By having SN operate some of its long haul flights later on the day, BAC can pretend those hours to be 'interesting times' too, rather than off peak hours like they were before; let's hope it works, because BRU needs to attract more intercontinental connections, especially to Asia. However, BRU should also work it's infrastructure; simply spreading out flights to maximize the use of its present infrastructure is a temporatily solution only, let's hope BAC doesn't sit on it's hands.

BTW, i wonder what SN got from BAC for their willingness to shift some flights to later hours and thus let the capacity of the airport grow 'on the cheap'...
It's almost impossible to expand during the morning peak hours (for non-shengen), so as long BRU can't expand their infrastructure (before they can expand the A pier the Diabolo project has to be (almost) finished) they have to spread the flights to optimise the capacity. Brussels Airport can't do this on their own, the home carrier needs to offer connectivity around noon/early afternoon before BRU can attract more long haul carriers around early afternoon. So SN started with offering an early afternoon long haul flight and BRU succeeded to attract QR with early afternoon operations. At this very early stage it looks a bit strange, but when SN and BRU succeed in attracting more long haul flights around early afternoon it will be much better. The advantages for SN are little at this stage because they just started with this tirth wave, but eventually it will have several advantages for SN. Imagine CO starting a second daily flight to EWR with departures in early afternoon for exemple, together with some Asian carriers operating around noon. SN's flights around noon/early afternoon will have a much bigger amount of connecting pax. SN could operate (more) noon/early afternoon flights to some destinations in Europe to offer more connectivity.
The result will be, both SN as BRU optimising their network/infrastructure, altough there is still a lot of work to do before they succeed in this.

ThierryD
Posts: 11
Joined: 01 Jul 2010, 14:00

Re: BRU winter 2010-2011: latest news, routes, airlines

Post by ThierryD »

Anybody heard about the new connection between Brussels and Hong Kong? According to the belgian newspaper " Het Laatste Nieuws" (http://www.hln.be/hln/nl/1901/reisnieuw ... ober.dhtml) Hong Kong Airlines (which seems to belong to Hainan) will fly between Brussels and Hong Kong 3 times a week starting from October.

sdbelgium
Posts: 5630
Joined: 10 Aug 2008, 13:32
Location: Gent
Contact:

Re: BRU winter 2010-2011: latest news, routes, airlines

Post by sdbelgium »

ThierryD wrote:Anybody heard about the new connection between Brussels and Hong Kong? According to the belgian newspaper " Het Laatste Nieuws" (http://www.hln.be/hln/nl/1901/reisnieuw ... ober.dhtml) Hong Kong Airlines (which seems to belong to Hainan) will fly between Brussels and Hong Kong 3 times a week starting from October.
Page three of this thread: https://www.aviation24.be/forums/viewtopic ... 43#p234943

Other sources include:

User avatar
RoMax
Posts: 4454
Joined: 20 Jun 2009, 16:32

Re: BRU winter 2010-2011: latest news, routes, airlines

Post by RoMax »

sdbelgium wrote:
I hadn't read the original article of La libre Belgique yet.
In this article it's said literally: "...Cette fois, l’obligation a été faite aux dirigeants du groupe que cet argent soit investi en Belgique notamment dans le cadre du développement du hub européen de HNA à Zaventem...". So I think this makes clear what I said before. The Flemish government gave the money to develop BRU as European HNA group. As HNA will develop BRU as hub, they will automaticly create a lot of jobs. So I think that's a good reason to invest 1.5 million, certenly compared to the millions Hainan is investing in Belgium.

User avatar
Atlantis
Posts: 4933
Joined: 12 Apr 2005, 00:00

Re: BRU winter 2010-2011: latest news, routes, airlines

Post by Atlantis »

Do you know the total amount HNA is going to invest in the near future? You already know the amount I gave you a couple of days ago: 30 million euro for their new Tangla Brussels hotel (former Sode-hotel).

The total amount is: 300 million euro.

User avatar
RoMax
Posts: 4454
Joined: 20 Jun 2009, 16:32

Re: BRU winter 2010-2011: latest news, routes, airlines

Post by RoMax »

Atlantis wrote:Do you know the total amount HNA is going to invest in the near future? You already know the amount I gave you a couple of days ago: 30 million euro for their new Tangla Brussels hotel (former Sode-hotel).

The total amount is: 300 million euro.
The article of La Libre Belgique also mentionned 300 million euro. So if you know that, I think it's very reasonable to invest "just" 1.5 million as local government.

BTW anything known about possible future routes trough BRU operated by HNA? As I suppose they will expand the amount of destinations served out of BRU if they develop BRU as their EU hub.

sdbelgium
Posts: 5630
Joined: 10 Aug 2008, 13:32
Location: Gent
Contact:

Re: BRU winter 2010-2011: latest news, routes, airlines

Post by sdbelgium »

MR_Boeing wrote:BTW anything known about possible future routes trough BRU operated by HNA?
IMHO they better start looking at upgauging frequencies to daily flights on all three destinations (PEK/PVG/HKG), before thinking about adding more routes. In the long run, maybe they can develop a Jet Airways-like scissor hub with China flights continuing to the US/Canada...

User avatar
Atlantis
Posts: 4933
Joined: 12 Apr 2005, 00:00

Re: BRU winter 2010-2011: latest news, routes, airlines

Post by Atlantis »

MR_Boeing wrote:
Atlantis wrote:Do you know the total amount HNA is going to invest in the near future? You already know the amount I gave you a couple of days ago: 30 million euro for their new Tangla Brussels hotel (former Sode-hotel).

The total amount is: 300 million euro.
The article of La Libre Belgique also mentionned 300 million euro. So if you know that, I think it's very reasonable to invest "just" 1.5 million as local government.

BTW anything known about possible future routes trough BRU operated by HNA? As I suppose they will expand the amount of destinations served out of BRU if they develop BRU as their EU hub.
I know that you urgently want to know what other routes they have in the pipeline. But don't forget that Shanghai is a very new route and Hong Kong is even not started. They first had to evaluate both routes. It's not a full house in the first weeks.

Be patient

User avatar
Atlantis
Posts: 4933
Joined: 12 Apr 2005, 00:00

Re: BRU winter 2010-2011: latest news, routes, airlines

Post by Atlantis »

According to Air Agencies, GSA for Hong Kong Airlines at Brussels Airport, is it not sure if Hong Kong Airlines will be able to start up pax flights as from October. The decission is not taken at this moment.

Cargo flights are no problem at this moment.

User avatar
RoMax
Posts: 4454
Joined: 20 Jun 2009, 16:32

Re: BRU winter 2010-2011: latest news, routes, airlines

Post by RoMax »

As every month around this time, MAp Airports announced the traffic numbers for their airports (Sydney, Copenhagen and Brussels). And in their article I found this:

""In addition, Hong Kong Airlines announced three weekly services to Hong Kong commencing in October 2010, Qatar Airways will launch five weekly services to Doha in January 2011, MEA will maintain its flights to Beirut throughout the whole year and Lufthansa will increase its frequency to Frankfurt by adding two additional daily flights from November 2010.""

Actually I tought HK Airlines didn't announced it yet and they are not talking about the cargo service wich starts in September.

So will they start services in October or not? Because Atlantis said it was not sure (yet).

http://www.moodiereport.com/document.ph ... c_id=24739

User avatar
Atlantis
Posts: 4933
Joined: 12 Apr 2005, 00:00

Re: BRU winter 2010-2011: latest news, routes, airlines

Post by Atlantis »

Two remarks about the above post:

1) The time that Map was preparing their figures to their shareholders it was indeed announced in the press that Hong Kong Airlines intends to start up three flights to BRU. But at this moment there is nothing signed yet and Map should know this. Mixed feelings about this. But it is always nice to show your shareholders that more new long haul carriers will come to a certain airport in their portfolio. In this case BRU.

2) Map's presentations are only about pax figures. That's why they never speak about cargo flights.
But Hong Kong Airlines cargo flights are certain to start in September with three flights a week and an upgrade to six flights a week in the near future.

Post Reply