Brussels Airlines joining Star Alliance in December 2009

[taz001]

Hi,

I've a question. How can you transform most of the A-pier to a full Star Alliance pier with a big non-schengen part as the A-pier only has one public level? It's correct that non-schengen arriving and departing passengers must be seperated right? How could they then fix that problem?

these pax must be separated indeed. How to do that in the A-terminal seems quite complicated. The current T-terminal is far from how it should be, though it works for the time being. Biggest issue why they have to separate departing and arriving pax is that out of non-schengen countries is the security check and immigration regulations. Schengen countries have all (should have all) the same standards and regulations. That is why you can travel BRU-FRA-FCO with only a security check in in BRU.From the non-Schengen countries, flights from and to the UK could also be handled as travelling within Schengen, but there you have the problem of immigration checks and as a consequence they are just handled as all other non-schengen flights so it won't get too complicated. Remember BRU received a warning from the European Commission a while ago concerning the screening of bagages? Well if they would not have improved these figures, flights from and to Brussels could have been categorised as flights coming from an 'unsafe' airport. Meaning that you would have gotten an additional security check when traveling through another Schengen country (BRU-FRA-FCO=> also through security screening in FRA)
imho, I only believe that the A-pier can be used for non-schengen flights when they expand it to the other side.

[Conti764]

the current A pier becomes a sort of mega T pier in its entirety so the UA, US, AC, ET long haul STAR flights etc flights can all move in there together with the long haul SN flights and BRU builds a new finger westbound to house all the shengen flights from STAR partners which are currently housed in the first part of the A pier.

They can’t... This would be highly inefficient for both Brussels Airport and Star Alliance. Incoming and outgoing international pax should be separated from each other, meaning a concourse with two floors is needed.
Now, having a plane coming in at B-pier, tow it to the T-zone, and have passengers transferring via busservice, is OK when you only have to do so for four planes of one company (SN). But imagine you’d have to move around ten to fifteen widebodies and have passengers come in from let’s say Newark, transferring to Kinshasa, it would be a real hassle to have them deboard at B-pier, transfer to T zone to board over there. It is possible, but it is not customer friendly.
What I would do is the following: prefer Star Alliance carriers to go to a gate and ‘force’ non-alliance carriers to operate ‘in the field’. They could end up giving Jet Airways and American Airlines (due to the fact that both have a good relationship with BRU and bring in many pax) the same rights, but force other carriers to go to the field.
The next step, upon completion of Diabolo (or when the rough infrastructure is ready and no more drilling or ground work has to be done) construct the well known Western expansion and make this the Star Alliance long haul part (wide body only) and foresee some double load bridges to cater for bigger planes (T7, A340, 747 (?),...) I am not saying we’re gonna have megaplanes at BRU, but it is better to be prepared...
This part can be build with two floors thus being able to handle international traffic. The existing part of the A-pier can be used for Star Alliance shengen operation. This would mean one hell of an infrastructure for Star Alliance and it would be very convenient to transfer between different flights.
The low cost terminal can be returned to a full service terminal for other, non-Star Alliance shengen flights. I don’t know if it is possible, but upon completion of the renovation of the office building, they could turn the satellite back into an aviation infrastructure.

After edit:
I have added a small picture to indicate the way I see the ideal expansion of Brussels Airport. Yet again, I do not claim to know it all nor do I want to be armchair CEO, but this the way I see the best solution for BRU.

[tolipanebas]

Yes, you're right, I forgot about the segregation between arriving and departing pax on non-schengen flights, so the best plan would indeed be to turn the A pier into a dedicated STAR terminal, but have it the other way round then: use the current infrastructure for STAR Schengen flights and a westerly extention for STAR long haul flights.

If BRU decided to do this, I don't think there's any more need for expansion works at the B pier or T gates at the A Pier, as I could see Jet airways and Etihad use the new long haul STAR infrastucture at the westerly expansion of the A pier too, given their stong collaboration with SN.

The B pier would thus become as desolated throughout the day as it is now in the afternoon, given the fact I don't see much new routes from non-STAR airlines being added to BRU in the future (other than possibly an EK flight one day)... anybody taking bets as to how long it will be before AA drops JFK for instance?

Other than a westerly expansion for long haul STAR flights, Brussels also urgently needs a schengen terminal for NON-STAR airlines then.

Oh, and while we're at it: the check-in area is indeed quite far from the STAR terminal. Besides, the current area is cramped during peak times, so I really like the idea of a new check in facility at the current location of the DHL buildings: one with an airy and open feeling then please, not one with a low ceiling like in the current one!

Well, that's quite a lot on the plate for the coming years, I'd say!
Suddenly, the entire discussion about a Low Cost terminal at BRU has become utterly irrelevant, as there are now far more pressing and far more lucrative issues on the agenda, just as predicted by all those who have been against the LCT project!

[Conti764]

Yes, you're right, I forgot about the segregation between arriving and departing pax, so the best plan would indeed be to turn the A pier into a dedicated STAR terminal, but have it the other way round then: use the current infrastructure for STAR Schengen flights and a westerly extention for STAR long haul flights.

I guess that's what BRU is up to... As long as they prepare for the future and foresee some items that are useless now: double loadbridges and easy and quick transfer for both pax and luggage.

if BRU decided to do so, I don't know if there's any more need for other expansion works at the B pier for other long haul carriers really, as I could see Jet airwaysand Etihad use the STAR infrastucture at the westerly expansion of the A pier too, given their stong collaboration with SN.

The B pier could become as desolated throughout the day as it is now in the afternoon, given the fact I don't see much new routes from non-STAR airlines being added to BRU in the future (other than possibly an EK flight one day)... anybody taking bets as to how long it will be before AA drops JFK for instance?

Maybe Star Wouldn't allow EK and 9W to use the A-pier? Certainly 9W with it's 6 widebodies a/c... On the other hand, I have red AI is far from ready to enter Star Alliance, so maybe we might se a switch to Jet Airways? (Dreaming, dreaming ) This would mean a huge jump for BRU and become a true Star Alliance hub...

Other then those, you'd still need the B-pier for all international flights, not only long haul... Royal Air Maroc, Afriqiyah, El Al, British Airways, Aeroflot, Royal Jordanian,... and some long haul carriers who probably won't leave BRU like American, Delta,... And you'd still have some low cost companies flying to BRU...

Other than a Westerly expansion for long haul STAR flights, Brussels also needs a schengen terminal for NON-STAR airlines: that's quite a lot on the plate for the coming years, I'd say

I would use the infrastructure foreseen for the low cost terminal. Build a new concourse at the location of the old finger south (12 gates) and reconfigure the satellite once the renovated office building is up and running again (ap. 10 gates). This should be sufficient for non-Star Alliance shengen operations...

Suddenly, the entire discussion about a Low Cost terminal at BRU has become utterly irrelevant, as there are now far more pressing and far more lucrative issues on the agenda, just as predicted by all those who have been against the LCT project!

However, they are renovating the old terminal landside for leisure flights (JAF and TC,...) and we still have the small 'row 12' (recently used for Hadjj flights), so they might just as well keep this infrastructure what it is intented for (but use the old terminal airside for shengen operations outside Star Alliance) and have the low cost carriers use the IRDL (tent structure) of the B-pier (non shengen LC) or the intended low cost gates at ground level of the C-pier (Shengen LC). But that means LC pax use the same facilities full service pax do, so it would blank out any financial advantage BRU would have to give to LC carriers...

But then again, they could give LCC some lower fees for not using an airbridge and standing in the field (appron 4) and in return give full service carriers the privilege to take off before LC carriers...

[Atlantis]

BRU should have known this was coming and they should in fact have started to prepare for it as from the moment SN announced the take-over by LH and the intention to join STAR, but no, they preferred to mess around with a Low Cost Terminal idea for another 12 months instead.


In short: there's an oportunity waiting for BRU to act on it, so better get your buts moving, guys.
If they can't present at least a clear expansion plan in 6 to 12 months, you can bet your life STAR is going to turn very unfriendly once more... Remember last time they did, BRU wetted its pant, halted the low cost carrier terminal project and sacked its CEO...

The current Australian/Belgian mangement has nothing to do with the fact that there is at this moment no Star Alliance terminal. In fact those plans for BRU are already excisting for many years. First they had plans to rebuild the B-concourse into a Star terminal.

The current management, even with WVA, put this plan again on the table. BRU wants this, don't blaim them, but you have to blaim the government. There was till this day no approval to accomodate such a thing at BRU.

Macquarie Airports invested a lot of money in BRU and still do every year. They want their money back and this via more flights and more pax, etc. But with no approval to expand they are limited.
If we have a look about the investments for 2010 then we see no big construction works on airside.

I/we hope for years for years that the government will se the benefit of this.

[134flyer]

Yes, you're right, I forgot about the segregation between arriving and departing pax on non-schengen flights, so the best plan would indeed be to turn the A pier into a dedicated STAR terminal, but have it the other way round then: use the current infrastructure for STAR Schengen flights and a westerly extention for STAR long haul flights.

If BRU decided to do this, I don't think there's any more need for expansion works at the B pier or T gates at the A Pier, as I could see Jet airways and Etihad use the new long haul STAR infrastucture at the westerly expansion of the A pier too, given their stong collaboration with SN.

Yes, this is what BRU is apparently up to, see also this link (see slide 20):

http://www.authorstream.com/Presentatio ... owerpoint/

Although a bit harder to 'google', I've also found another (publicly available) link on the net, which basically shows the diagram which was posted by Conti764:

Fase 1 (short term): implementation of T-Zone for AFI flights

Fase 2 (mid term): building of a 3 level Pier A West, which has flexible Schengen/non-Schengen gates,
T zone will be 'shut-down' and permanently become a Schengen area again

Fase 3 (long term): extension of Pier A West (which then will have up to 28 narrowbody or 14 widebody gates) & building of terminal extension where DHL is right now.

Just an idea concerning the non-Star Alliance Schengen flights when/if the A Pier would be fully Star Alliance: why not use the first part of the B Pier for the Schengen flights & the second part for the non-Schengen flights, so basically a situation like the A-Pier with the T-Zone or like the Lufthansa A Pier at DUS?

[Conti764]

I want to make clear that the diagram I've posted is my own interpretation and doesn't come from a source within BAC...

I guess since it was known a year ago, SN would join Star Alliance Brussels Airport has already made some preparations accordingly. So I guess, if the government stops working against Brussels Airport, we will soon start to see the first official plans and on the longer term the first works to be done to expand the airport.

I guess the B-concourse isn't an option for Star Alliance. Being the dominant alliance, I guess they would like to use BRU's most recent, most modern en most beautiful infrastructure...

[Conti764]

Just an idea concerning the non-Star Alliance Schengen flights when/if the A Pier would be fully Star Alliance: why not use the first part of the B Pier for the Schengen flights & the second part for the non-Schengen flights, so basically a situation like the A-Pier with the T-Zone or like the Lufthansa A Pier at DUS?

I don't think this would be a good option... It would imply moving the border control into the B-pier itself (i.s.o. the current location at the terminal) or to construct a second border control (unefficient). And at the arrivals level they'd have to move the border control further forward, again into the concourse itself, meaning less space, less boxes and more qeues.

I'm in favor of just finishing the low cost terminal air side, upgrade it to a full service terminal and let all non-Star Alliance shengen flights arrive and leave at this infrastructure. They could still use the excisting check-in area and if this becomes to crowded, build an expansion at the desolate former DHL site, on top of the Diabolo tunnel and use this for Star Alliance check in. I guess they wouldn't need a huge capacity for *A-check in, since I assume the majority of *A passengers at BRU would be transfer pax from and to flights of SN to Africa. This would imply the A-concourse to become the centerstone of operations at BRU, meaning they'd have to focus on allowing pax to transfer quickly and in all comfort.

Another advantage with dispersing the current non-shengen pax over two terminals, is they'd take away the pressure on the A-concourse security check, meaning a faster and better check.

Another thing to do, could be to demolish the next DHL building as well, and thus provide space for a new parking building. In 2008 there were days that people had to park everywhere around the airport since the parkings were full. If the economy goes up again, this will happen again, no doubt. Better be prepared for every scenario then to be caught on surprise.

But like Atlantis says, for BRU to grow, the government has to cooperate with BAC in stead of working against them!

[Ducatibiker]

Strange...flights in B.Flex only yield 50% of the miles on United Mileage Plus...same as most economy fares.
But the good news, it is 100% EQS.

[134flyer]

I want to make clear that the diagram I've posted is my own interpretation and doesn't come from a source within BAC...

Yes, I understood it was your own interpretation, just wanting to say that it was pretty much in line with the presentations of BRU, which I found publicly on the net.

Just an idea concerning the non-Star Alliance Schengen flights when/if the A Pier would be fully Star Alliance: why not use the first part of the B Pier for the Schengen flights & the second part for the non-Schengen flights, so basically a situation like the A-Pier with the T-Zone or like the Lufthansa A Pier at DUS?

I don't think this would be a good option... It would imply moving the border control into the B-pier itself (i.s.o. the current location at the terminal) or to construct a second border control (unefficient). And at the arrivals level they'd have to move the border control further forward, again into the concourse itself, meaning less space, less boxes and more queues.

Well, if the non-Schengen Star Alliance flights would move to the A-Pier, the B-Pier will become even more deserted as it is right now, especially in the afternoon, so perhaps it’s better to use the B-Pier more efficient instead of building a new infrastructure for the non-Star Alliance Schengen flights.

Like you pointed out, there are some if's & but's, but you could do it like this: replace the current border control at the B-Pier departures level by a boarding pass check to enter the Schengen area. Security will remain where it is right now. Build a border control somewhere at the middle of the B-Pier to enter the non-Schengen area. There should be enough space for this, see the T-zone. The arrivals border control can remain where it is, as the whole lower arrivals level will remain ‘non-Schengen’: arriving Schengen pax enter the B-Pier at the departures level, just like at the A-Pier. Only at the beginning of the B-Pier, they go down to the baggage belts (so perhaps some reconstruction is needed there). Transfering non-Schengen to non-Schengen pax do so like they do now at the middle of the B-Pier: security check and go one level up. Non-Schengen to Schengen transfer pax go to the present arrivals border control and will go one level up there. Maybe some reconstruction there as well, so the border control is before the stairs back to the B-Pier Schengen area.

They could still use the excisting check-in area and if this becomes to crowded, build an expansion at the desolate former DHL site, on top of the Diabolo tunnel and use this for Star Alliance check in

Well, according to the (publicly available) BRU presentations, this is the (longer-term) plan: build a terminal expansion on top of the Diabolo tunnel. I guess you could indeed concentrate the Star Alliance check-in there. Maybe you can build an integrated terminal-expansion/parking building? Or otherwise, like you suggested, a parking building next to it, but then it would become more complicated to expand the terminal even further in the long term.

[sn26567]

Interesting interview of an SN spokesman with eTurboNews (ETN) on 23 December, about the benefits for SN in joining Star Alliance, the relationship with LH, the codeshares with Jet Airways and future developments in Africa.

ETN makes sometimes bitter remarks about the answers of the spokesman.

[pilot A320]

I wish you all a Merry Christmas and Happy New Year 2010

Hi Bralo20

So it is confirmed the 1 A319, 1 A330 are joining SN fleet very soon

[regi]

Sorry NCB, there go your chances for a narrow body to Africa.

[Vinnie-Winnie]

Interesting interview of an SN spokesman with eTurboNews (ETN) on 23 December, about the benefits for SN in joining Star Alliance, the relationship with LH, the codeshares with Jet Airways and future developments in Africa.

ETN makes sometimes bitter remarks about the answers of the spokesman.

Thanks for the link Interesting read!

[brussels airlines]

I've found a very interesting article on the same site (http://www.eturbonews.com/13234/star-al ... s-airlines).

It's an interview with Brussels Airlines' Managing Director Bernard Gustin. They are seriously planning to open 2 US-destinations. The destinations would propably be New York JFK and Boston OR Chicago. But at this moment, nothing has officialy been done or planned.

[brusselsairlinesfan]

Indeed... very interesting article...
It shows all potential growth procured by Star Alliance!
Very exciting to learn that brussels airlines seriously looks at launching flights to the US... and that Brussels Airport aims developing Asia...

[RoMax]

JFK It would be wonderfull but how are they gonne make that profitable? You've got daily AA B752, daily Jet A332 and from next summer daily Delta B763. That's already a lot for an airport like BRU. I suppose that one of the carriers Jet, AA or Delta will give up the route after a time if SN will start the route.

[Atlantis]

AA is working together with Jet between India and the US and this via BRU.

AA, DL and Jet are flying to JFK
CO to EWR
UA to ORD and IAD
AA to ORD

JFK will be very hard. Star partner UA is going to open a direct flight to ORD.
It seems that only BOS is free.

I see DL(Skyteam) eventually withdraw. Skyteam will be in the future very small on BRU. With a direct trainlink in the near future KLM will fly less to BRU.

[RoMax]

If JFK will come (and it looks like JFK is sure), I think Delta will loose the that route. AA and Jet working together and SN working together with possibly all the American Star Alliance airlines (CO, UA, US).
About ORD and BOS, I suppose they will pick BOS because ORD will have already two daily flights. If it will come, I think AA will loose this route, altough they are very strong on the BRU market (for sure with Jet) but the competition with UA and SN working together with CO (and US maybe) will be to hard.
So if SN will start flights to JFK and BOS, than I think this will be the future:
JFK: AA, Jet and SN (Delta gonne)
BOS: SN
ORD: AA, UA

If SN will fly to ORD and JFK, than I think this will be the future:
JFK: AA, Jet and SN (delta gonne)
ORD: UA and SN (AA gonne or maybe B752)

If it will be ORD and BOS:
JFK: DL, AA, Jet
ORD: UA and SN (maybe AA B752)
BOS: SN

[brusselsairlinesfan]

If JFK will come (and it looks like JFK is sure), I think Delta will loose the that route. AA and Jet working together and SN working together with possibly all the American Star Alliance airlines (CO, UA, US).
About ORD and BOS, I suppose they will pick BOS because ORD will have already two daily flights. If it will come, I think AA will loose this route, altough they are very strong on the BRU market (for sure with Jet) but the competition with UA and SN working together with CO (and US maybe) will be to hard.
So if SN will start flights to JFK and BOS, than I think this will be the future:
JFK: AA, Jet and SN (Delta gonne)
BOS: SN
ORD: AA, UA

If SN will fly to ORD and JFK, than I think this will be the future:
JFK: AA, Jet and SN (delta gonne)
ORD: UA and SN (AA gonne or maybe B752)

If it will be ORD and BOS:
JFK: DL, AA, Jet
ORD: UA and SN (maybe AA B752)
BOS: SN

Hello,

How can you be so sure about the introduction of JFK?
Maybe we have a clue in the fact that it seems impossible to book a flight to New York on the brussels airlines website after March 2010...

Cheers...