Brussels Airport: air traffic control ATC on strike

[LX-LGX]

First of all, I can completely understand the reasons for a strike. Being a member of the Belgian postal services I am very much aware on conditions of having few on staff topped by sickness giving us extra stress and workload, long days, growling colleagues and public.

Vosje, I wonder if you would still say the same if the next strike by ATC is a wildcat strike of 24 hours, starting exactly 1 hour before you were supposed to go on holiday - let's say to Egypt for 14 days. Your aircraft will be blocked in BRU and you will therefore only leave for Egypt with a delay of some 24 to 36 hours, meaning that you won't be in Luxor, on time for the expensive Nile cruise you have booked - and paid for. Cruise boat is gone, so if you still would leave for Egypt, you will now need a hotel in Luxor. But they, the touroperator is not responsible for your delay, so you will have to pay for those replacement overnights.

As long as others are victims of a strike, it seems to be all OK, isn't it?

Same applies for Vosje's company, the Belgian Post. Delivery services (?) are on strike, for the second day today. Reason (?): see above, in Vosje's post. Wonder if families who last Friday have sent out letters with knowledge of a funeral also accept the "heavy workload" as a reason to go on a 48 hour strike.

For the record : I'm not part of management or ownership from a large company. I'm just a tax payer (low income, thus low taxes) who hates it when innocent people are used as hostage in a social dispute.

[Nevihta]

Actually, I'm starting to be fed up with ALWAYS hearing about poor people that cannot go on holidays, or that will arrive late. If the strike is announced 24hrs prior, it's not going to change anything, you won't have time to book another flight, and the egyptian boat won't be waiting for you neither.

It's sad, but there are more importants things in life, and arriving alive in holidays is one of them.

So if you have any constructive remarks, please shoot, but stop always coming back to "think about poor people that can't go on holidays", please...

It's not always about holidays or money...

[Vosje]

First of all, I can completely understand the reasons for a strike. Being a member of the Belgian postal services I am very much aware on conditions of having few on staff topped by sickness giving us extra stress and workload, long days, growling colleagues and public.

Vosje, I wonder if you would still say the same if the next strike by ATC is a wildcat strike of 24 hours, starting exactly 1 hour before you were supposed to go on holiday - let's say to Egypt for 14 days. Your aircraft will be blocked in BRU and you will therefore only leave for Egypt with a delay of some 24 to 36 hours, meaning that you won't be in Luxor, on time for the expensive Nile cruise you have booked - and paid for. Cruise boat is gone, so if you still would leave for Egypt, you will now need a hotel in Luxor. But they, the touroperator is not responsible for your delay, so you will have to pay for those replacement overnights.

I'm not here to discuss this issue. This place is simply one of the few places which has at least some information. I do have a flight next Saturday, but I would rather go on a delayed flight than one which crashes because the flight controller was overworked and not focussed enough to do the job. And Schiphol isn't that far either, and neither is the Eurotunnel. I can take precaution today but I need info.

As long as others are victims of a strike, it seems to be all OK, isn't it?

Same applies for Vosje's company, the Belgian Post. Delivery services (?) are on strike, for the second day today. Reason (?): see above, in Vosje's post. Wonder if families who last Friday have sent out letters with knowledge of a funeral also accept the "heavy workload" as a reason to go on a 48 hour strike.

For the record : I'm not part of management or ownership from a large company. I'm just a tax payer (low income, thus low taxes) who hates it when innocent people are used as hostage in a social dispute.

The current strikes are not about about workloads, they are about reforms which will hit not just us but the public as well, the low-income customers like yourself. Take those funeral letters of yours and suppose you get to pay 5 euro a piece or more, to get them to the furthest corner where aunt, uncle or cousin lives. And now imagine you made a mistake on the address or number. Today we'll look them up if there's an error, if the postman has been doing a tour for years he might even see the error. The further the reform goes the less of these types of services will be available. Is your letter box up to the norms? No? Well have a nice trip on the bus to collect your mail. Postpunt closed when they go on holiday or even out of business? There you go on that bus again. But don't worry about the big boss of Colruyt or 3suises, they get it on their lap. It's the little people are on strike for. Unfortunately too few realise what they have until it's gone.

[b720]

to those who are fed up by passengers complaining of below standard service, i have one thing to say.. without these "poor" holiday makers, or other passengers, no one will have a job at BRU. Respect where your bread and butter come from..this should be engraved in everyone's mind at all times.

[Nevihta]

to those who are fed up by passengers complaining of below standard service, i have one thing to say.. without these "poor" holiday makers, or other passengers, no one will have a job at BRU. Respect where your bread and butter come from..this should be engraved in everyone's mind at all times.

1. what is below standard service in ATC ?
2. People can understand, we are all passengers. But there are lot of others people travelling than holidaymakers, and they all deserve respect. And coming back each time to holidaymakers is non constructive to me.

[b720]

1. I said holday makers, and ALL other passengers.. some mentioned distress of holiday makers as they are not compensated for lost holidays, missed flights, ships, boats etc.. while a business traveler is compensated by his/her firm... or as often ticket is flexible.. the only issue is a delay of few hours, or an extra night in a hotel far away from family, which is unfair too... no matter how you look at it, it remains unfair.

2. below standards indeed, when they strike without warning, that is way way below standard and unethical in my opinion..

[regi]

It was all predictable. This is just the beginning of the social storms. We still have to see mass unemployment , like 25% or more like in the eighties.
No worries, guys, we will not be forgotten when it comes to violent demonstrations, occupations, strikes, ...
Remember the last mine workers at Brussels? ( good time for Asahi Glass )
Or Dorazzio and the bull dozer affair on the high way ? ( reorganisation of Forges de Clabecq/Duferco ) - and the blue eye of the administrator?

[zteven]

I would rather go on a delayed flight than one which crashes because the flight controller was overworked and not focussed enough to do the job.

Good point.

[euroflyer]

If the strike is announced 24hrs prior, it's not going to change anything, you won't have time to book another flight

WRONG, sorry, I am flying for business and if I know (as an example) today before 17h00, that ATC in Brussels will be on strike tomorrow morning, I will cancel my meeting in Brussels and do something else (somewhere else), or I will rebook my flight to go to AMS and than rent a car or rebook to CDG and take the Thalys or go by train directly from Frankfurt or ... or ... or ...

It might not be possible for the holiday people flying charter flights with tour operators (but even those operators could than think of bringing their planes to Liege, Charleroi or Cologne early enough and transfer pax by bus to those airports).

Please be open and honest, if ATC goes on strike (and I am not arguing about the reasons behind that for a moment), than it is because they WANT to make an effect on other people, they WANT to see hundreds of families being stranded in the airport for half a day and angry business people missing their meetings, because if this does not happen as a consequence of a strike, than nobody will take notice of the strike. TV and radio and papers will only report about the poor families and the angry business people, not about Brussels Airport or Brussels Airlines or whoever loosing some million Euro of turnover because of industrial action. So if ATC wants to be succesful with their strike (in their eyes), than they need to take 'hostages', otherwise a strike does not make any sense at all. If this is the case, it should be openly said by those who are in favour of a strike.

And to make this clear: I am against nearly any strike, there is always another way and only weak unions need to go on strike (in my view ...), but that is something they will of course never admit openly

[tolipanebas]

if ATC goes on strike (and I am not arguing about the reasons behind that for a moment), than it is because they WANT to make an effect on other people, they WANT to see hundreds of families being stranded in the airport for half a day and angry business people missing their meetings, because if this does not happen as a consequence of a strike, than nobody will take notice of the strike. TV and radio and papers will only report about the poor families and the angry business people, not about Brussels Airport or Brussels Airlines or whoever loosing some million Euro of turnover because of industrial action. So if ATC wants to be succesful with their strike (in their eyes), than they need to take 'hostages', otherwise a strike does not make any sense at all. If this is the case, it should be openly said by those who are in favour of a strike.

Correct.

You can regret the need to do so, but you can't argue the fact that you often need to do it to make any sort of impact these days.

I am against nearly any strike, there is always another way and only weak unions need to go on strike (in my view ...), but that is something they will of course never admit openly

No weak unions at all, quite on the contrary even!
A weak union isn't going to call for a strike even, because the last thing they'd want to see happening is reveil how few support they only have... Only a union which enjoys massive support can organize a strike successfully.

As strike is proof of how small the power of a union is though, as it reveils there is no other way to make a point with management than to hit them where it hurts, i.e. in their wallet.

Sadly, over the past few decades, topmanagers have become overly obsessed with just the short term financial performance of their enterprise and the massive bonusses linked to that, rather than with the long term wellbeing of not only their business but all of its stakeholders, so management at all too many companies has lost sight of anything other than the ballance sheet and increasingly shows a growing disrespect for anybody who'd like to see real structural improvements made to the way things are done, especially when these changes are costing money. Most topmanagers these days couldn't care less about the long run or about the long term impact of any of their ideas on the social life of those working a full carrier, as they'll be gone in a few years regardless, often with many millions in their pockets.

Don't blame the unions for playing by the same rules set by their management though.
If you're fed up being stuck for the zillionth time due to a strike, rather than bash those who walked out, bash those who let it come this far and remember they often aren't giving in only to safeguard their own massive performance-driven bonusses at year's end!

You're stuck not because irresponsible employees want a few euro extra salary (or another day off), but because a few nice-talking yuppies want to rack in another few million euro in bonusses before they quit from their job and take on another 'challenge' elsewhere!

[euroflyer]

Sorry tolipanebas, I tend to disagree here. For me a union calling a strike is mainly focussing on its own members, showing them how active they are (to argue afterwards "we have done everything, but more was not possible").

Employers (at least the clever ones) have always already calculated the risk of a strike, believe me, and know if it hurts them more than a Euro or two more ...

A really strong, powerful and clever union will be able to achieve a good result in "normal" negotiations. And there are many examples around (but most of them from outside Belgium I am afraid )

But I admit, being a professional in this area (and for the employers side ), I might have no neutral view here

[cathay belgium]

Euroflyer,

With a strike the people wants changes for the system, better working times/salaries/etc.. , BUT
a strike is the ONLY thing employees can do IN THE END.
( renault-opel-ford-mines-etc .....)

With the strike employees NEVER WANTS to hurt anybody else but their management !
The people wich are stuck in the airport maybe are ' collaterral damage ' but I think
everybody in their job may have the right to go on strike,police-post-fireman-trains... !
It hurts also other people besides the management but hey thats democracy and I never wants
to live in any other system, okay I will fight for that ...
Such as already said better a late arrival than an arrival in a bodybag..

Like tolipanebas said in the end you can hit your boss the most where it hurts.. the wallet!
But it is the last thing to do because from that wallet you get paid also...
So if people are stuck in airports due to a strike remember the reason is not the strike but
the EVENTS happened before the STRIKE !!!
So I think you better don't blame the employees... blame the...
Your talking about strong/weak unions, I can talk about strong/weak/reasonable management...
just on which side you are I propose.

But as I understand in the interviews there was no raise of salary involved just more people wanted on the floor, in this safety organisation ! and when I heard the reasons .. I think you better tought twice before
posting your opinion !
But living in a democracy each opinion has the right to exist.

CX-B

[Airbus330lover]

But living in a democracy each opinion has the right to exist.

And in a democracy, each person has the right to work and to be informed BEFORE a strike too

[tolipanebas]

Sorry tolipanebas, I tend to disagree here.

That's okay.
Everybody is entitled to his or her opinion, for as long as he doesn't call the other one a criminal!

For me a union calling a strike is mainly focussing on its own members, showing them how active they are (to argue afterwards "we have done everything, but more was not possible").

I don't know what sector you're in and it's obviously none of my business, but I can assure you that at least when it comes to aviation, the 'front line workers' are of higher intellectual standards than factory workers, so what you describe here is overly naive really.

Aviation is one of the few labour intensive 'industries' if we can call it that way, where the 'day-to-day production' is done not by people who have dropped out of school early like in an ordinary factory, but by highly trained professionals which are of equal intellectual standards to their managers.

All to often however, job-hopping managers arriving at an airline think they can deal with us the same way they dealt with their workfloor employees at their previous ketchup plant, only to be shocked by the counterweight offered to their often ridiculously emply smarttalk.

Employers (at least the clever ones) have always already calculated the risk of a strike, believe me, and know if it hurts them more than a Euro or two more ...

Allow me to call that just bluff.

Again, maybe you can speculate on the fact the average factory worker will not go on strike longer than a couple of days, but in aviation, pilots or controllers have a zillion intelligent and legal methods at their disposal to basically halt work or make the employer loose a fortune for months, while not loosing salary themselves.... Often the idea we'd actually start doing it makes our managers burst into sweat, as they know all too well that we can actually do it, and there's no legal way to prevent us from doing just that.

A really strong, powerful and clever union will be able to achieve a good result in "normal" negotiations

It would equally be of great help if at the other side of the table, unions were again to find fully committed partners which shared a passion for and have a long term commitment to the professional sector they both work in, rather than a bunch of smart-talking yuppies which think they can simply apply the same fit-to-all recepies wherever they show up after yet another jobhopping experience, merely focussing only on the short term improvement of their ballance sheets and thus personal financial wellbeing under the form of yet another massive bonus.

It's really this widely accepted yet overly gready managerial mentality to be obsessed with always wanting to improve the next quarterly result even further, regardless any possible risks, which has brough the world's economy at the edge of a total collapse last year, not the so-called irresponsible behaviour of unions which we have all to often been warned for in the past, you know?

[pressman]

I wouldn't worry too much about the unions , once the lisbon treaty comes in - they are finished .

[euroflyer]

I wouldn't worry too much about the unions , once the lisbon treaty comes in - they are finished .

As we are going a bit off topic here already anyway, I think we should just stop this rather political discussion here I guess. I can agree to some of your points tolipanebas, but not on all as you might have expected Just for the records: "my" industry is one with a very high level of highly qualified and trained staff as well. The main issue is of course that you need a constructive approach from both sides - as always. But it does not help if one side (which ever it is !) tends just to continue to show with their fingers on the other side of the table and saying "they" are the bad ones ... The world is never that simpe

But now to your remark "pressman", that is really interesting. I think I do know the Lisbon treatry quite a bit (attention: understatement ), and I can honestly not see at all in which way it should reduce the importance and power of unions

[LAGPanoramic]

It might not be possible for the holiday people flying charter flights with tour operators (but even those operators could than think of bringing their planes to Liege, Charleroi or Cologne early enough and transfer pax by bus to those airports).

I know this is off topic, but I can't let to react on this: when this happens, I hope for the passengers that these transfers will be made by coaches and not by buses! A bus is something with low floor (not always), very simple seats (zitbaken/banquettes), no luggage compartments, generally single glass etc. Thus only used for local, generally (sub)urban traffic. A coach is with comfortable individual seats (generally reclinable), underfloor luggage compartments and ceiling luggage bins, individual ac outlets, double glass etc. I really hope I will never have to be transfered from BRU to LGG or even Cologne by bus!!!

About the topic: I always found it unethic to make a non announced strike (speciality of TEC Charleroi...), but I'm much worried about the working conditions of Belgocontrol staff that I read here!
Coach and truck drivers may not work more than 4 and 1/2 h non stop, after which they have to take at least 45 minutes of break. And they may not work more than 6 days consecutive!!!
If a coach or truck driver would be cought working like I read here, his driving licence would be cancelled for 2 weeks awaiting a trial in front of the police court!!! And believe me, nowadays, chance of being cought is real, especially because they can look back 2 years on the digital tachograph.

Can anyone in charge (management of Bolgocontrol, or top people of the ministry of transports, or perhaps even the ministre himself?) explain me why ATC people, who care about more people than a coach driver, don't have to respect the same (or even more severe) rules?

And now that we are some days further, did the people in charge take measures (or promised to do so) to improve the situation?

Greetings

[euroflyer]

It might not be possible for the holiday people flying charter flights with tour operators (but even those operators could than think of bringing their planes to Liege, Charleroi or Cologne early enough and transfer pax by bus to those airports).

I know this is off topic, but I can't let to react on this: when this happens, I hope for the passengers that these transfers will be made by coaches and not by buses! A bus is something with low floor (not always), very simple seats (zitbaken/banquettes), no luggage compartments, generally single glass etc. Thus only used for local, generally (sub)urban traffic. A coach is with comfortable individual seats (generally reclinable), underfloor luggage compartments and ceiling luggage bins, individual ac outlets, double glass etc. I really hope I will never have to be transfered from BRU to LGG or even Cologne by bus!!!

About the topic: I always found it unethic to make a non announced strike (speciality of TEC Charleroi...), but I'm much worried about the working conditions of Belgocontrol staff that I read here!
Coach and truck drivers may not work more than 4 and 1/2 h non stop, after which they have to take at least 45 minutes of break. And they may not work more than 6 days consecutive!!!
If a coach or truck driver would be cought working like I read here, his driving licence would be cancelled for 2 weeks awaiting a trial in front of the police court!!! And believe me, nowadays, chance of being cought is real, especially because they can look back 2 years on the digital tachograph.

Can anyone in charge (management of Bolgocontrol, or top people of the ministry of transports, or perhaps even the ministre himself?) explain me why ATC people, who care about more people than a coach driver, don't have to respect the same (or even more severe) rules?

And now that we are some days further, did the people in charge take measures (or promised to do so) to improve the situation?

Greetings

Point taken on the bus vs coach language issue (however, better go by bus to Liege and fly from there than to wait for 24h at BRU maybe )

On the working conditions at Belgocontrol: I have the very same feelings as you have when I read the posts about it. But than again - and I am no insider at all here - I know you always have to here both sides to get the real picture. So I would really be interested to the description of the situation from the management point of view to be able to judge maybe a bit more on the real situation