Turkish Airlines B737 crashes in Schiphol Amsterdam - TK1951

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airazurxtror
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Re: Turkish Airlines B737 crashes in Schiphol Amsterdam

Post by airazurxtror » 28 Feb 2009, 19:54

TCAS wrote:
At least two (2) pilots where HIGHLY (ex. Turkish Airforce) experienced
The Egyptian pilot who crashed his 737 in the sea at Sharm-el-Sheik a few years ago was also an ex-general ...

Typical Turkish patriotism : nothing Turkish can possibly be wrong - not the pilots, nor the company ... at first, they even denied there was any victim !
For the Turkish pilots association, it was a windshear ! How do they know, one would like to know.
This is a typical middel-eastern reaction (it would be the same in Egypt, for instance). Sentimentality, patriotism, nationalism - before or rather than the reality.

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TCAS
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Re: Turkish Airlines B737 crashes in Schiphol Amsterdam

Post by TCAS » 28 Feb 2009, 20:07

1. Dutch law ONLY allows CVR and FDR data access in case of terrorism or criminal acts.

2. The Dutch public prosecutor (Openbaar Ministerie) has an unpleasant history of bad behaviour (ref. Boeing 737-406 PH-BTC Runway Excursion during Landing at BCN) and isn't pilot's community friend.

@airazurxtror
Hold your horses ;)
Please no culture bashing.

Everything can be possible, wake turbulence, incorrect ATC separation, pilot Incapacitation, incorrect MCC, technical malfunction(s) or failures etc. etc. and even T H I S.
Last edited by TCAS on 28 Feb 2009, 20:38, edited 1 time in total.

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galaxy
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Re: Turkish Airlines B737 crashes in Schiphol Amsterdam

Post by galaxy » 28 Feb 2009, 22:32

airazurxtror wrote: This is a typical ..... reaction . Sentimentality, patriotism, nationalism - before or rather than the reality.
Indeed,it's the same all over the world,with the exception of one country somewhere between the Netherlands and France. :mrgreen:

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cathay belgium
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Re: Turkish Airlines B737 crashes in Schiphol Amsterdam

Post by cathay belgium » 28 Feb 2009, 23:07

Hi Boys & Girls,

I tell you I like the humor of you all, smile with your topics but hey !!!
Let's talk aviation and stop pissing on eachother and saying haha I'm good . :evil:
( I'm electrian ,aviation lover and have 285h37min of flight time as pax, 77 flights
and also I have my opinions ! ) :mrgreen:

You might not listen to me but it start to be annoying for the not involved topic-readers,
if you guys don't stop I need to join you with my ridicoleus thoughts, HA :!: :!: :!:

Peace Man ! CX-B
New types flown : A223,AN24,AW139,B737MAX8,B763nonER,DH Dragonrapide,EMB110 Bandeirante, Shorts360,Autogire MTOsport2010

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earthman
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Re: Turkish Airlines B737 crashes in Schiphol Amsterdam

Post by earthman » 01 Mar 2009, 00:47

I can hardly wait to read the first post speculating on the cause of the accident and claiming that if the plane had been an Airbus the accident could not have been possible. :twisted:

* runs and hides *

LX-LGX
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Re: Turkish Airlines B737 crashes in Schiphol Amsterdam

Post by LX-LGX » 01 Mar 2009, 10:38

The Dutch newspaper De Telegraaf has received info from someone apparently close to the investigation. They've put it online, and to make sure that non-pilots (like probably most of the Dutch citizens) understand a bit what was ging on, they've put it in decimals.

De Telegraaf says that the plane was descending too severe during a long period - with a first correction only 45 seconds prior to impact.

Questions from De Telegraaf: was the co-pilot, training on this 737-800, landing the plane? Was there a technical failure? Was there fuel shortage? Was there a combination of these factors?

Altitude - ground speed - descending speed.

465m - 280 km/h - 215m/min
366m - 294 km/h- 410m/min
276m - 274 km/h - 371m/min
183m - 269 km/h - 273m/min
130m - 239 km/h - 215m/min
76m - 217 km/h - 195m/min
23m - 159 km/h - 176m/min

Source for this:
http://images2-telegraaf.nl/multimedia/ ... 09951e.jpg

More details (in Dutch only):
http://www.telegraaf.nl/binnenland/3362 ... nel__.html

Post has been edited - adjusted after post from NCB
Last edited by LX-LGX on 01 Mar 2009, 11:17, edited 1 time in total.

NCB

Re: Turkish Airlines B737 crashes in Schiphol Amsterdam

Post by NCB » 01 Mar 2009, 11:08

Go around call, aim for the runway (at least if you are well established on the localiser or have the runway visual), flaps to go-around setting, airspeed check (depending on configurations, engine out or not, weight, etc...) positive rate of climb check, gear up.

The data on the left is altitude, not distance to impact.

465m - 151.19kts - 215m/min
366m - 158.75kts - 410m/min
276m - 147.95kts - 371m/min
183m - 145.25kts - 273m/min
130m - 129.05kts - 215m/min
76m - 117.17kts - 195m/min
23m - 85.85kts- 176m/min


Now we must see whether or not this information is accurate.

mpilot
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Re: Turkish Airlines B737 crashes in Schiphol Amsterdam

Post by mpilot » 03 Mar 2009, 12:11

I have not read all the posts but if the CG movie on airliners.net is correct, this is what I think happened:

1. The FO was flying the approach but wasn't stable (not abnormal during line training)
2. They got a GPWS warning so they reacted with a go-around, BUT ...
3. The FO pushed the TOGA buttons of the 737 for the go-around logic and asked for F15 (go-around flaps)
4. Allthough the pilots did press TOGA they did not advance the thrust levers (this does not happen automatically unless during autoland and normal take-off)
5. The FO pitched up to Go-around but was too brutal with the controls (going beyond normal go-around pitch of 15°)
6. The combination of the too high pitch and lower flaps stalled the aircraft
7. the captain saw what happened and took over control to lower the pitch and advance the thrust levers
8. Too late => impact

So basicly the cause => FO in training and the TOGA "logic" in the 737

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1V1
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Re: Turkish Airlines B737 crashes in Schiphol Amsterdam

Post by 1V1 » 03 Mar 2009, 20:05

mpilot wrote:I have not read all the posts but if the CG movie on airliners.net is correct, this is what I think happened:


3. The FO pushed the TOGA buttons of the 737 for the go-around logic and asked for F15 (go-around flaps)
4. Allthough the pilots did press TOGA they did not advance the thrust levers (this does not happen automatically unless during autoland and normal take-off)
5. The FO pitched up to Go-around but was too brutal with the controls (going beyond normal go-around pitch of 15°)
6. The combination of the too high pitch and lower flaps stalled the aircraft
7. the captain saw what happened and took over control to lower the pitch and advance the thrust levers
8. Too late => impact

So basicly the cause => FO in training and the TOGA "logic" in the 737
1. TOGA logic; Only during autoland??? Where did you get that info? Was the autothrotlle disconnected?
2. The PNF would never select a lower flap setting before he checked the engines spooling up.
3. Doesn't the B737 have stallprotection? Was he below 100feet when he stalled?

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Re: Turkish Airlines B737 crashes in Schiphol Amsterdam

Post by LX-LGX » 04 Mar 2009, 07:48

First results from the investigation will be given today, at 14h00, during a press conference.

LX-LGX
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Re: Turkish Airlines B737 crashes in Schiphol Amsterdam

Post by LX-LGX » 04 Mar 2009, 10:19

LX-LGX wrote:First results from the investigation will be given today, at 14h00, during a press conference.
From the Safety Board's website:

"... De Onderzoeksraad voor Veiligheid, onder voorzitterschap van prof. mr. Pieter van Vollenhoven zal op woensdagmiddag 4 maart 2009 de eerste resultaten bekend te maken van het onderzoek naar het neerstorten van een Boeing 737-800 van Turkish Airlines bij de luchthaven Schiphol, op 25 februari 2009. Prof. Van Vollenhoven zal om 14 uur in het Internationale Perscentrum Nieuwspoort, Korte Poten 10 in Den Haag, een korte toelichting geven op de deze eerste bevindingen. Tijdens de bijeenkomst wordt gezorgd voor simultaan vertaling Nederlands/Engels..."

Today at 14h00, the Safety Board and its president prof. Pieter van Vollenhoven will announce the first results from their investigation into the crash.

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earthman
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Re: Turkish Airlines B737 crashes in Schiphol Amsterdam

Post by earthman » 04 Mar 2009, 14:53

The evidence seems to point towards pilot error:

http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/unusu ... idenc.html

MiguelBaert
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Re: Turkish Airlines B737 crashes in Schiphol Amsterdam

Post by MiguelBaert » 04 Mar 2009, 15:09

Just heard on the news the accident was partially caused by a broken radio-altimeter. The left-hand altimeter was broken and indicating a height of -8ft while the plane was at 1950ft. So the autothrottle of the 737 thought the plane was about to land and reduced throttle. The plane went below its normal glidepath. At 450ft, the crew realised that they were way too low and tried to recover from the already incipient stall, but it was too late.

Spicy detail: that altimeter had already been defecive twice in the last 8 runs with that 737.

Source: the radio news and http://www.luchtvaartnieuws.nl/news/?ID=29808 (sorry dutch only).

My opinion? A human error of the crew: they failed to notice that the system for automatic landing was failing.

Desert Rat
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Re: Turkish Airlines B737 crashes in Schiphol Amsterdam

Post by Desert Rat » 04 Mar 2009, 16:02

There should be to two RA's on the 737, Am I right??

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Re: Turkish Airlines B737 crashes in Schiphol Amsterdam

Post by sdbelgium » 04 Mar 2009, 16:29

Yes, the left one (captain's seat) was malfunctioning. The F/O's RA was functioning as normal.

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Re: Turkish Airlines B737 crashes in Schiphol Amsterdam

Post by grnkg » 04 Mar 2009, 16:33

As always, the more info available, the more questions arise:

1/ on the 2 previous faillures of the LH RA, was it noted by the crew and was there a pilot entry made in the techlog?

2/ if so, sure the a/c could be dispatched (MEL item), but the autoland system (CAT status) should have been downgraded. Why was this not done?

Kind regards,
GR.

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TCAS
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Re: Turkish Airlines B737 crashes in Schiphol Amsterdam

Post by TCAS » 04 Mar 2009, 17:45

earthman wrote:The evidence seems to point towards pilot error:
More or less it seems to be.
TCAS wrote:I hope the THY1951 accident doesn't turns out to be a case where the Instructor let things get away from him (F/O incapacitation / line training / MCC) resulting in the crash of a perfectly serviceable aircraft.
Ex. Turkish Airforce fleet commander, with > 5.000 hrs TT on F-4E's.
The highest number of hrs in the world on F-4E's and one of THY most experienced senior pilots (15.500 hrs TT) :shock:

The Dutch Safety Board Press statement on first findings, 4 March 2009 (PDF)
The Dutch Safety Board Press release, 4 March 2009 (PDF)

FROM: THE BOEING COMPANY
TO: MOM [MESSAGE NUMBER:MOM-MOM-09-0063-01B] 04-Mar-2009 05:29:01 AM US PACIFIC TIME
Multi Operator Message
This message is sent to all 737-100,-200,-300,-400,-500,-600,-700,-800,-900,-BBJ customers and to respective Boeing Field Service bases, Regional Directors, the Air Transport Association, International Air Transport Association, and Airline Resident Representatives.

SERVICE REQUEST ID: 1-1228079803
ACCOUNT: Boeing Correspondence (MOM)
DUE DATE: 10-Mar-2009
PRODUCT TYPE: Airplane
PRODUCT LINE: 737
PRODUCT: 737-100,-200,-300,-400,-500,-600,-700,-800,-900,-BBJ
ATA: 3400-00

SUBJECT: 737-800 TC-JGE Accident at Schiphol Airport, Amsterdam - 25 February 2009

REFERENCES:
/A/ 1-1222489391 Dated 25 February 2009

Reference /A/ provides Boeing's previous fleet communication on the subject event. The US NTSB, FAA, Boeing, the Turkish DGCA, the operator, the UK AAIB, and the French BEA continue to actively support the Dutch Safety Board's (DSB) investigation of this accident.

The DSB has released a statement on the progress of the investigation and has approved the release of the following information.

While the complex investigation is just beginning, certain facts have emerged from work completed thus far:

- To date, no evidence has been found of bird strike, engine or airframe icing, wake turbulence or windshear.
- There was adequate fuel on board the airplane during the entire flight.
- Both engines responded normally to throttle inputs during the entire flight.
- The airplane responded normally to flight control inputs throughout the flight.

The Digital Flight Data Recorder (DFDR) data indicates that the crew was using autopilot B and the autothrottle for an ILS (Instrument Landing System) approach to runway 18R at Amsterdam Schiphol airport. During the approach, the right Low Range Radio Altimeter (LRRA) was providing accurate data and the left LRRA was providing an erroneous reading of -7 to -8 feet. When descending through approximately 2000 feet the autothrottle, which uses the left radio altimeter data, transitioned to landing flare mode and retarded the throttles to the idle stop. The throttles remained at the idle stop for approximately 100 seconds during which time the airspeed decreased to approximately 40 knots below the selected approach speed.

The two LRRA systems provide height above ground readings to several aircraft systems including the instrument displays, autothrottle, autopilots and configuration/ground proximity warning. If one LRRA provides erroneous altitude readings, typical flight deck effects, which require flight crew intervention whether or not accompanied by an LRRA fault flag, include:

- Large differences between displayed radio altitudes, including radio altitude readings of -8 feet in flight.
- Inability to engage both autopilots in dual channel APP (Approach) mode
- Unexpected removal of the Flight Director Command Bars during approach
- Unexpected Configuration Warnings during approach, go-around and initial climb after takeoff
- Premature FMA (Flight Mode Annunciation) indicating autothrottle RETARD mode during approach phase with the airplane above 27 feet AGL. There will also be corresponding throttle movement towards the idle stop. Additionally, the FMA will continue to indicate RETARD after the throttles have reached the idle stop

Boeing Recommended Action
- Boeing recommends operators inform flight crews of the above investigation details and the DSB interim report when it is released. In addition, crews should be reminded to carefully monitor primary flight instruments (airspeed, attitude etc.) and the FMA for autoflight modes. More information can be found in the Boeing 737 Flight Crew Training Manual and Flight Crew Operations Manual.

Operators who experience any of the flight deck effects described above should consult the troubleshooting instructions contained in the 737 Airplane Maintenance Manual. Further, 737-NG operators may wish to review 737NG-FTD-34-09001 which provides information specific for the 737-NG installation. Initial investigations suggest that a similar sequence of events and flight deck indications are theoretically possible on the 737-100/-200/-300/-400/-500. Consequently the above recommendations also apply to earlier 737 models.

airazurxtror
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Re: Turkish Airlines B737 crashes in Schiphol Amsterdam

Post by airazurxtror » 04 Mar 2009, 22:13

TCAS wrote:Turkish pilots association says "wake turbulence" likely crash cause
The Turkish Airlines plane crash in Amsterdam is likely to have been caused by "wake turbulence" from a larger aircraft, ruling out the earlier suggestions of an engine problem. (UPDATED)
"If this is the case, then air traffic controllers and Dutch aviation officials are the ones that should be accused.
And now, what what do they say ?
Have they made excuses for having falsely accused the Dutch air traffic controller ?

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TCAS
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Re: Turkish Airlines B737 crashes in Schiphol Amsterdam

Post by TCAS » 05 Mar 2009, 06:35

airazurxtror wrote: And now, what what do they say ?
Have they made excuses for having falsely accused the Dutch air traffic controller ?
Negative.

I haven't seen any reaction/respond from "The Untouchables" (TALPA) yet.

Latest Hurriyet 'Hero to Zero' news Fault in altimeter cause of plane crash

Wim fan
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Re: Turkish Airlines B737 crashes in Schiphol Amsterdam

Post by Wim fan » 05 Mar 2009, 08:52

It seems interesting that untill now it seems no media is talking about the 100 seconds between autothrottle action and pilot action that is mentioned in the boeing report.

In the item on VRT-news ysterday as well as the article referred to above, it seems as if the pilots reacted immediately. From my limited Microsoft Flight Simulator experience at 2000 ft you can still do a lot with a plane, even if you loose thrust for say 10 seconds.
Am I the only one thinking like this?

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