Turkish Airlines B737 crashes in Schiphol Amsterdam - TK1951

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TCAS
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Re: Turkish Airlines B737 crashes in Schiphol Amsterdam

Post by TCAS » 26 Feb 2009, 12:55

Anyone ..... who landed in front of THY1951.

KLM B777 from San Paolo ??

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Re: Turkish Airlines B737 crashes in Schiphol Amsterdam

Post by euroflyer » 26 Feb 2009, 13:32

TCAS wrote:Anyone ..... who landed in front of THY1951.

KLM B777 from San Paolo ??
Hm, why? Wake turbulence? Wrong Separation? Or just to compare conditions?
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Re: Turkish Airlines B737 crashes in Schiphol Amsterdam

Post by TCAS » 26 Feb 2009, 13:48

First one ;)
Wake Turbulence = Pilots most invisible ENEMY

BTW It was a Northwest B757 in front.

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Re: Turkish Airlines B737 crashes in Schiphol Amsterdam

Post by Spitfire » 26 Feb 2009, 15:06

What you call rumours, for most it's just a keen interest to the cause of the accident, because from that we learn and try to prevent it from happening again in the future. Anyone not interested in that is simply in the wrong business!

Kind regards,
GR.
You are right, I'm in the wrong business with my 40 years flying, more than 12 000 flying hours and qualified on B737 (200-300-400-500), DC10-30, Airbus 330 (200-300) and Airbus 340 (200-300).
Of course, I'm retired now... so I must be a "safe pilot"...

Can you tell me something about your knowledge...


And or your info...Found on airliners.net:


"I was watching a Dutch talkshow "Pauw en Witteman" yesterday where they interviewed a passenger. He said the plane started to wobble from left to right and then the nose started to pitch up. Following that the engines revved up pretty heavily in a clear attempt to recover and about 10 seconds later they hit the ground.

So the theory that the engines were not working is also not correct. This passenger was relatively ok and left through the overwing exit door
."

So better wait, as usual ,before spreading rumors and "big" theory....

Smelling like 'stall near the ground' here....
Last edited by Spitfire on 26 Feb 2009, 15:41, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Turkish Airlines B737 crashes in Schiphol Amsterdam

Post by Kapitein » 26 Feb 2009, 15:13

TCAS wrote:Anyone ..... who landed in front of THY1951.

KLM B777 from San Paolo ??
KL792 from Sao Paolo landed yesterday in BRU.

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Re: Turkish Airlines B737 crashes in Schiphol Amsterdam

Post by regi » 26 Feb 2009, 15:52

Just saw the official Dutch press conference at Thursday 14h00, the day after the crash: No news at all, still 6 unidentified bodies and 4 unidentified critically wounded.

Strange remark after a reporter's question: the black boxes are transfered to the Security Coucil and the results may take months, even years to come forward.

Second very strange remark:
a reporter asked to confirm if Turkish ( aviation/security/police) were on the crash site. The answer was very blunt: ask the Security Council.

Some thoughts:
  • most Dutch people just learned at this moment that there is a security council in the Netherlands, which overrules even police ( admitted by its spokesman Pieter Van Vollenhoven )
    many Dutch people don't understand why there are 3 different lists with passenger names, and there are problems with identification. On several blogs you can read things about double nationality etcetera.
    There seems to be some underground tension between several ministries in the Netherlands.
Personally I think that this utter lack of information is based on the fear of the Dutch officials to make mistakes. At this moment most of the fingers point to a fault at the Turkish side. The Dutch want to avoid that at any moment they could be blamed, what would cost them enormous .
Imagine the impact for Schiphol if something was wrong with the airport equipment ?

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Re: Turkish Airlines B737 crashes in Schiphol Amsterdam

Post by TCAS » 26 Feb 2009, 17:00

regi wrote: Strange remark after a reporter's question: the black boxes are transfered to the Security Coucil and the results may take months, even years to come forward.?
The Dutch Safety Board have not FDR readout tools/equipment.

FDR readout will be done by the French.

First (conclusions) are expected after this weekend.

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Re: Turkish Airlines B737 crashes in Schiphol Amsterdam

Post by ticketbuyer » 26 Feb 2009, 22:41

From Hurriet Daily News, a Turkish newspaper

EYEWITNESS - Turkish pilots save lives on board and on the ground

FIRST PERSON - I live in the city of Zwanenburg and was kilometers away from the crash-site doing my run loop. I heard a strange noise and looked towards it.
There was no explosion but the noise of the impact, a big bang, the ground trembled and there was the sound of engines howling like they reversed power or were just overturning by lack of resistance.
From this distance I saw the plane make this awkward maneuver, and as a former Royal Dutch Marine, I immediately knew that this was an emergency.
The maneuver was one with the nose of the plane high; like the airbrake maneuver, in which nose of the plane is pulled up and the total surface of the wings is used to reduce speed dramatically.
I arrived at the scene in 8-10 minutes. The rescue teams were already on their way. Some passengers came out of the plane and wandered around. Myself, and approximately 200 other citizens, assisted in taking these people to safety.
By then there where ambulances, police, firefighters and volunteers all over the place. I dismissed myself because now the disaster program was fully operational.
The Dutch people did their utmost best to assist the passengers and gave them first aid and offered them comfort.
PILOTS ARE HEROES
While the investigation is underway and may take some time, I want to let you know that the pilots and the crew of flight 1951 have to be considered HEROES and the Turkish people can be proud of them.
The place he landed was the only option for the pilot and he had to make this decision in a split-second.
The maneuver he made was topical jetfighter drill to reduce speed for impact. By this he maximized the chances for survival for the passengers, while knowing his own position would worsen.
By doing this, the pilot avoided busy traffic on highway A9 and there were no casualties there. This highway is also elevated, so impact on it would have been fatal for everybody on board.
My sympathies go out to the family of the crew and to those how lost their loved ones and I wish them much strength in coping with this tragedy.

*Jeroen Jonkers, an Amsterdam resident, is an eyewitness of the crash of a Turkish Airlines flight in Amsterdam. He contacted Hurriyet Daily News via its website and sent his story. This is his story in his own words.

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Re: Turkish Airlines B737 crashes in Schiphol Amsterdam

Post by LX-LGX » 26 Feb 2009, 23:09

ticketbuyer wrote:From Hurriet Daily News, a Turkish newspaper

EYEWITNESS - Turkish pilots save lives on board and on the ground
With all my respect to the crew - and before someone comment: I'm a very frequent flyer, and I really appreciate their knowledge and tools:

this report is in contradiction with those from other eyewitnesses - and more important - to the reports from surviving passengers. This was no emergency landing: it was a crash. The plane lost power at the worst possible moment (at very low altitude) and as a result of that power loss, it crashed: it was all over in 10 seconds. There was no time for the crew to notify ATC or AMS, and there was no time to alert cabin crew and/or pax "brace for impact", there was no time to correct speed, angle, heading. Like one of the passengers told NOS-tv: "suddenly we've dropped, and the next moment we hit the ground. It was all over in 7, 8, max 10 seconds. Then came the screaming".

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Re: Turkish Airlines B737 crashes in Schiphol Amsterdam

Post by TCAS » 27 Feb 2009, 07:31

LX-LGX wrote: I'm a very frequent flyer, and I really appreciate their knowledge and tools
There's a HUGE 'point of view' difference between a local civilian, backseat 'frequent' flyer or front seat 'Cockpit' aviator with several thousand flying hours ;)

At least two (2) pilots where HIGHLY (ex. Turkish Airforce) experienced and one was instructor (Captain).

If it was a 'Controlled' crash(?) so what.
To be realistic the outcome could be worse, much worse.

Everything is possible, previous incoming aircraft (18R) noticed flock of LARGE birds at or near 500' and the weather was 'relatively' calm. In other words, a low-level wind shear or microburst is 'most' unlikely.

Note: with flock of LARGE birds I mean (example) Goose/Swans etc.

Because there isn't any THY1951 malfunction communication (AMS TWR West), example N-1, going down etc ..... unexpected and 'quite' fast.

Before jumping into any 'public' conclusion, we have to wait (CVR Transcript and FDR readout) untill the FIRST Dutch Safety Board accident finding, which are expected next week.

Newspapers have one goal, selling newspapers to the 'unknown' public. Nothing more, nothing less.
99% of the 'Professional' jounalists/editors are non aviation experts and haven't any clue about 'Real World' aviation.

Unless the Minimum Equipment List (MEL) say so, NO aircraft become 'necessarily' unairworthy with an unserviceable 'Cabin' lavatory, defect 'cockpit' illumination light etc. etc.

**** U P D A T E ****
Turkish Airlines confirmed that the second (born 1980) F/O was on line training (acting F/O).

Source: NU.nl
-
2 Boeing employees died in Amsterdam crash (Seattlepi.com)

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Re: Turkish Airlines B737 crashes in Schiphol Amsterdam

Post by TCAS_climb » 27 Feb 2009, 13:49

Anybody interested in the most recent article of the Flight Safety Foundation on upsets (a.k.a. loss of control) ?
http://www.flightsafety.org/asw/feb09/a ... p34-39.pdf

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Re: Turkish Airlines B737 crashes in Schiphol Amsterdam

Post by regi » 27 Feb 2009, 15:39

And yes, the war of the different departments is in full swing. Sorry, just in Dutch again.
The ministry of Justice is very upset that the Security Council sent the black box to France without their knowledge or approval.

http://www.telegraaf.nl/binnenland/3349 ... tml?p=19,1

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Re: Turkish Airlines B737 crashes in Schiphol Amsterdam

Post by LX-LGX » 27 Feb 2009, 16:00

TCAS wrote:
LX-LGX wrote: I'm a very frequent flyer, and I really appreciate their knowledge and tools
There's a HUGE 'point of view' difference between a local civilian, backseat 'frequent' flyer or front seat 'Cockpit' aviator with several thousand flying hours ;)

At least two (2) pilots where HIGHLY (ex. Turkish Airforce) experienced and one was instructor (Captain).

If it was a 'Controlled' crash(?) so what.
To be realistic the outcome could be worse, much worse.

Everything is possible, previous incoming aircraft (18R) noticed flock of LARGE birds at or near 500' and the weather was 'relatively' calm. In other words, a low-level wind shear or microburst is 'most' unlikely.

Note: with flock of LARGE birds I mean (example) Goose/Swans etc.

Because there isn't any THY1951 malfunction communication (AMS TWR West), example N-1, going down etc ..... unexpected and 'quite' fast.

Before jumping into any 'public' conclusion, we have to wait (CVR Transcript and FDR readout) untill the FIRST Dutch Safety Board accident finding, which are expected next week.

Newspapers have one goal, selling newspapers to the 'unknown' public. Nothing more, nothing less.
99% of the 'Professional' jounalists/editors are non aviation experts and haven't any clue about 'Real World' aviation.

Unless the Minimum Equipment List (MEL) say so, NO aircraft become 'necessarily' unairworthy with an unserviceable 'Cabin' lavatory, defect 'cockpit' illumination light etc. etc.

**** U P D A T E ****
Turkish Airlines confirmed that the second (born 1980) F/O was on line training (acting F/O).

Source: NU.nl
-
2 Boeing employees died in Amsterdam crash (Seattlepi.com)
I'm sure it's all true what you're saying, but that's no reply to my remark that the report from this eyewitness ("I was a few kilometres away") was in strong contradiction with the reports from surviving passengers.

Many passengers said that there was no warning from the cockpit to brace for impact, that they were shaken up a bit, followed by a sudden loss of power followed by a fall followed by an attempt to regain power followed by the crash. From the first signal that something was wrong till impact, there were only 10 seconds ("rather 7 or 8 then 10" said one passenger). Same applies for ATC: the crew gave them no signal that something was wrong.

I'm not suggesting what caused the crash. I'm just telling that I don't believe this particular eyewitness who suggested that that the crew was able to make an emergency landing and to select the place of impact. If this was the case, the pilot should have warned passengers and cabin crew with a "brace for impact".

Pieter Van Vollenhoven, in charge of the investigation, is expecting the transcripts from the CVR and details from the FDR beginning of next week. He expects these details will point out what can be excluded (example fuel shortage) and can hopefully point out what probably happened. Like he said on Dutch television: we have one year to finalize our report, but that doesn't mean we have to use that period.

(By the way: I've spend quite some time on the jump seat also. And somewhere deep in my basement stuff, there's an outdated, worthless 30 year old theoretical PPL - never finished with enough practical hours).

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Re: Turkish Airlines B737 crashes in Schiphol Amsterdam

Post by TCAS » 27 Feb 2009, 16:34

regi wrote:The ministry of Justice is very upset that the Security Council sent the black box to France without their knowledge or approval.
The Dutch safety Board works 'totally' independent.
The Minister of Justice and State Secretary for Justice (incl. Harry P*tter) have NOTHING to say in this :mrgreen:

I hope the THY1951 accident doesn't turns out to be a case where the Instructor let things get away from him (F/O incapacitation / line training / MCC) resulting in the crash of a perfectly serviceable aircraft.

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Re: Turkish Airlines B737 crashes in Schiphol Amsterdam

Post by TCAS » 27 Feb 2009, 16:56

Turkish pilots association says "wake turbulence" likely crash cause
The Turkish Airlines plane crash in Amsterdam is likely to have been caused by "wake turbulence" from a larger aircraft, ruling out the earlier suggestions of an engine problem. (UPDATED)

Officials from the Turkey Airline Pilots' Association (TALPA) said in a press meeting on Friday that there is some information regarding a Boeing 757 type plane that landed in Schiphol Airport just two minutes before the Turkish Airlines flight.

A Boeing 737-800 plane, operated by Turkish Airlines, crash-landed in Amsterdam en route from Istanbul on Wednesday. At least nine people, including four crew members, were killed and 84 others injured in the accident. The plane had been carrying 128 passengers and seven crew members.

"If this is the case, then air traffic controllers and Dutch aviation officials are the ones that should be accused. There are international limitations on such cases," chairman of the TALPA, Ali Ziya Yilmaz, said.

He said the plane descended very rapidly and this does not happen when the engines have stopped.

Violent mini-tornadoes can hang in the air for minutes in the wake just under the path of slow-flying heavy jets.

"When the two planes get closer to each other, the larger one should warn the smaller plane. The control tower should have opened the distance between the two aircraft. Everything seems normal until the last minute. One thing that remains uncertain is the information on the previous plane," the official added.

Airliners are separated by air traffic controllers to avoid flights encountering such dangerous turbulence.

Aircraft have been known to be sent out of control after following too closely behind and slightly below a preceding large aircraft.

TALPA RAISES NEW QUESTIONS
"We are asking. Was the required distance placed between the two planes or not? Did the (air controller) inform the pilots of our plane that there was an aircraft ahead in the category of wake turbulence? Those questions should be answered," the TALPA General Secretary Savas Sen also told at the press conference.

The officials also ruled out the possibility of the insufficient fuel. "When this plane hit the ground, it had 4,100 kilograms of fuel. That means the plane had enough fuel to land in Cologne (nearest airport) and operate there (on the ground) for half an hour," Sen, a pilot himself, added.

He said according to the plane's speed at the time of the accident it should have descended 1,500 meters a minute, but instead it started to drop rapidly.

"If there were problems with the engines, the descending would not have been like this... Our pilots have put the plane on the ground as required," Sen said.

The pilots, Hasan Tahsin Arısan, Murat Sezer and Olgay Ozgur, all confirmed dead, have been hailed as heroes for the minimal loss of life despite such a serious accident.
Source: Hurriyet DailyNews

"Wake Turbulence, Pilots most invisible ENEMY"

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Re: Turkish Airlines B737 crashes in Schiphol Amsterdam

Post by earthman » 27 Feb 2009, 17:33


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Re: Turkish Airlines B737 crashes in Schiphol Amsterdam

Post by sn26567 » 27 Feb 2009, 18:31

When I saw the registration of the Turkish 738 that crashed in Schiphol I was sure it reminded me something. I checked my records and I found out that I travelled on it from BRU to IST on 27/10/2007. A very nice flight in business class. I even took a picture before departure.

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Re: Turkish Airlines B737 crashes in Schiphol Amsterdam

Post by LX-LGX » 27 Feb 2009, 21:17

regi wrote:And yes, the war of the different departments is in full swing. Sorry, just in Dutch again.
The ministry of Justice is very upset that the Security Council sent the black box to France without their knowledge or approval.
The Safety Board is only investigating what caused the crash.

The public proscecutor is investigating if someone has to be proscecuted (ex. for negligence, manslaughter, ...).

These two separate investigations will therefore clash from time to time - unevitable, said a professor Dutch law on tv.

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Re: Turkish Airlines B737 crashes in Schiphol Amsterdam

Post by TCAS » 28 Feb 2009, 05:13

LX-LGX wrote: The Safety Board is only investigating what caused the crash.

The public proscecutor is investigating if someone has to be proscecuted (ex. for negligence, manslaughter, ...).

These two separate investigations will therefore clash from time to time - unevitable, said a professor Dutch law on tv.
In The Netherlands aviation is forbidden by law, unless ....

It seems that The Ministry of Orange Juice and/or public proscecutor somehow ..... follow (If it Ain't Dutch, It Ain't Much) the International sharply criticized French and Italian Prosecutorial Interference way of aviation accident investigation :shock:

See Flight Safety Foundation Criticizes Prosecutorial Interference With Aviation Accident Investigation (PDF)

Mr. Pieter van Vollenhoven and his aviation accident investigation team earn - a hell of a lot - respect for not dealing with The Ministry of Orange Juice and/or public proscecutor.

Regardless of what a 'TV' professor in Dutch law is saying, Mr. Pieter van Vollenhoven's approach is the only way how a(ny) aviation accident investigation 'officially' should be performed.
--
On openATC there's some interesting UNOFFICIAL stuff available.
1. ADS-B track images THY1951
2. Last recorded Altitude and Speed Profile THY1951

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Re: Turkish Airlines B737 crashes in Schiphol Amsterdam

Post by LX-LGX » 28 Feb 2009, 12:47

This reply from TC shows that some people within the aviation business don't like the fact that the public proscecutor searches for evidence of severe negligence, or voluntary errors, or severe safety infractions.

Dutch law applies. You may laugh with that, you may ridiculize that like TC does, but fact is that Dutch law clearly states that there are two seperate investigations after a crash: one to reveal what happened and one to see if someone should be proscecuted for severe negligence, voluntary errors or severe safety infractions.

I can understand that pilots prefer that only one investigation takes place: the one to find out what happened. "To prevent it happens again" is indeed the most important issue after a crash. But surviving passengers (and more generally: the public) have the right to know if THY and/or one of its employees have broken safety rules.

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