The future of Brussels Airlines with Lufthansa

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Conti764
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Re: The future of Brussels Airlines with Lufthansa

Post by Conti764 »

Bralo20 wrote: Since A B752 has a range of 3.900nm at full payload I assume that's not possible. BRU-IAH is aproximately a bit over 5.000nm
Their 762ER has enough range and even carries one pax less then the 752, but with more C-seats. But then again, it remains to be seen if CO has enough traffic (esp. in C) to operate the flight. Maybe if they can promote their South-American network from IAH? But they already serve many S-A markets from EWR and currently CO only runs 3 destinations in Europe from IAH: CDG, LHR and AMS. The next route will be FRA. I don't think we will soon see a CO IAH-BRU rotation.

sn-remember
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Re: The future of Brussels Airlines with Lufthansa

Post by sn-remember »

Sad to see AC taking on the YUL-BRU route
Was expecting SN to take this route (*A made it possible) along with BOS and NYK (since long ago)
Don't see their strategy to successfully come back across the pond.

Nor do I see their strategy on Africa with a far too limited network
No move ... as usual :(

Bralo20
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Re: The future of Brussels Airlines with Lufthansa

Post by Bralo20 »

Conti764 wrote: Their 762ER has enough range and even carries one pax less then the 752, but with more C-seats. But then again, it remains to be seen if CO has enough traffic (esp. in C) to operate the flight. Maybe if they can promote their South-American network from IAH? But they already serve many S-A markets from EWR and currently CO only runs 3 destinations in Europe from IAH: CDG, LHR and AMS. The next route will be FRA. I don't think we will soon see a CO IAH-BRU rotation.
I don't think IAH is a good route from BRU. And I don't see it happen soon in BRU. Actually, I don't think that many BRU - US flights will be added...

Maybe a second UA flight to IAD or ORD at most... And that's about it... AC is starting YUL which is a nice addition (at least if the premium fares will drop to a more realistic level).

Maybe in the very far future we can see additional routes, but not soon (although I hope otherwise).

Bralo20
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Re: The future of Brussels Airlines with Lufthansa

Post by Bralo20 »

sn-remember wrote:Sad to see AC taking on the YUL-BRU route
Was expecting SN to take this route (*A made it possible) along with BOS and NYK (since long ago)
Don't see their strategy to successfully come back across the pond.

Nor do I see their strategy on Africa with a far too limited network
No move ... as usual :(
SN does not have the equipment to run the route. Neither do they have the equipment to run a BRU-BOS route.

Africa will be the contintent they'll focus on, not North America. ;)

sn-remember
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Re: The future of Brussels Airlines with Lufthansa

Post by sn-remember »

Bralo20 wrote: SN does not have the equipment to run the route. Neither do they have the equipment to run a BRU-BOS route.

Africa will be the contintent they'll focus on, not North America. ;)
This is indeed my point : no strategy, no investment, no ambition, day to day management, shop keeper's mind, completely low since years and years ...

Just hoping LH can do the job they never could do themselves ...

So sad :(

BTW equipment u can always find ...

Bralo20
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Re: The future of Brussels Airlines with Lufthansa

Post by Bralo20 »

sn-remember wrote:
This is indeed my point : no strategy, no investment, no ambition, day to day management, shop keeper's mind, completely low since years and years ...

Just hoping LH can do the job they never could do themselves ...

So sad :(

BTW equipment u can always find ...
Everybody wants the old "Sabena" back when they flew the queen of the skies, the Boeing 747 and connected all continents to Brussels. Although I would love to see this again in the future it is a thing of the past... This part was closed when Swiss Airlines bought Sabena and managed to buy a bunch of planes that SN didn't need at that time... SN went bankrupt in no time and a while later SN Brussels was founded on the ashes of the old gracious Sabena now resulting in Brussels Airlines, a relative small airline that had to start from 0 (or near 0).

SN is doing good on the African continent since they have a lot of knowledge about flying those routes thanks to Sabena... To some point SN can be seen as an Africa specialist. And this is something they is probably their long term strategic plan for the future... A decent western company with the knowledge of operating flights into the African continent...

Although I would love to see flights from and to LAX, SFO, IAH, BOS, ORD, JFK, EWR, IAD, LAS, SEA, MIA, and probably dozens of other airports this is not a wise choice to make at this moment...

The economic climate is not to good to start a route like that, there are plenty of other carriers flying to those destinations with reasonable connections through big hubs in the US. Same starting from the US, near all those places have multiple daily connections with big hubs through the US wherefrom you can take a flight to BRU.

And while SN may have a great bunch of cash behind hand, this doesn't mean they have to start taking unnecessary risks...

Back in the old days, SN was a government owned company, it was the pride of the country and it was our flag carrier... Back in those days it didn't care if they operated bad lines with few passengers... The airline was funded with taxpayers money... And yes, SN had a very good reputation back in the old days, they were even pioneers in some cases (remember the develepment of the Boeing 747 Combi back in the '70s). the SABENA brand was a brand that stood for quality. Flight personnel from Sabena was highly skilled, the service was top level and the own flight academy was one of the best in the world... But these were the days when SN had an unlimited source of funding through the government...

When that changed and the government needed to sell SN it went from bad to worse with the known result...

Now, anno 2009, 10 years after the Boeing 747-300 left SN's fleet, SN is only a small carrier, privatly funded... While the government has still some shares through funds it is a 100% private company... A private company that had to start from 0 when it was funded back in february 2002.

Will we see some new routes in the future? I'm certain that we will... Will it be riskfull routes? It doubt they will...

We'll just have to wait... No need to run before you can walk ;)

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Re: The future of Brussels Airlines with Lufthansa

Post by sn-remember »

@Bralo20

Yes I agree with most of your posting but you are out my point.

There is no idea of "grandeur" in my mind ..(we are not French are we ?)
I am just saying that YUL BOS and NYK were obvious targets for SN coming back west bound.
We can discuss the strategy of doing so, to me just look on a map and u must understand that Brussels is (in some way but definitely in my mind) "atlantic oriented".
And those 3 cities are an obvious choice (concerning location, competition,alliance and core market meaning a good amount of B-originating traffic) to restart ops
And I am not looking backwards, always forwards..

Taking risks is part of the daily business process (but of course known and calculated risks).
Otherwise it's over the counter beans vendor stuff..
And taking calculated risks means seizing opportunities .. which snba management never did since day 1.
Do they even see them? Let me express my serious doubts ...
So to me again it's a "no mangement" scenario and we know where it laid the company to ... (a bird for the german cat)

Saying that is not pretending that previous managements scenarios prevailng during Sabena days are to be refered to.
In fact let's not talk about Sabena anymore, its not relevant when discussing SNBA.
:)
Last edited by sn-remember on 26 Aug 2009, 17:19, edited 2 times in total.

kiwiandrew
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Re: The future of Brussels Airlines with Lufthansa

Post by kiwiandrew »

sn-remember wrote:In fact let's not talk about Sabena anymore, its not relevant when discussing SNBA.
:)

I beg to differ , remember " those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it " we need to look at the mistakes of the past and those included operating routes for prestige not profit .


SN is currently a small airline , for them to start up not one , but three transatlantic routes would require them to nearly double their widebody fleet , and what for ? NYC-Brussels is already saturated with AA/DL/CO/9W so how much money do you think they would make ( lose !) on it , YUL-BRU will be taken care of by their *A partner AC at no risk to SN . Perhaps , just perhaps , BOS-BRU could make sense for part of the year .

sn-remember
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Re: The future of Brussels Airlines with Lufthansa

Post by sn-remember »

Ok I'll answer just this one and then ... 2 BAD
Yes too bad that NYK and now YUL (and when the market recovers BOS) are or will soon be operated by others ..
That was my point ... letting opportunities pass :(

YUL and BOS were until recentlly competition free
NYK had to be regained.
3 destis are necessary to create a foothold and thus make the airline credible and eventually the routes profitable.
Letting slip this market is shortsighted in my view bcause it can/will be most welcome in later stages of the airline development. Every segment is interdependant in a network and also has a compensating effect.

But who has a clear view of SN's network and operations in the future ?
SN will just be a feeder into LH's network unless there is a vision to push for a credible alternative business plan.

I'll just add this... To me it's no surprise the hurry of AC to announce the route .. They saw the opportunity and seized it while SN was still (and maybe will remain) in a "no challenge" context.

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RoMax
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Re: The future of Brussels Airlines with Lufthansa

Post by RoMax »

AFI is always be the strong part of the Belgian aviation. SN need to make money on that, not on US routes (for sure the first years). This is to risky for SN, with AFI they can take more risks. Leave this US routes to their strong *A partners, SN can earn money on this routes to without taking a risk. And NYK is for sure not a good idea for SN, AA and DL are strugeling with this route (downgrading 752 for AA, and only 5 weekly flights for DL next winter). Only CO is realy strong on this route because of their goverment and bussines contracts.

And wy nowbody understand that I am NOT telling you that an route to Houston will/can be start soon. I only said that if the economy is on a high level, this route can work, don't forget that Houston is an important city to. Don't forget that CO, UA, US and AC will start a route this will be with a codeshare of SN. If you ask me wich US routes can be started in the next 10 years I would say Boston and Houston on the top. They can choose for a 5 weekly flight to Houston also. If that didn't work nothing will work on the US market (about expanding the network that we can see now) in the next 10 years. Wy everyone thinks that I am talking about a new route this will be something for the end of this year or so. I AM REALLY NOT SAYING THAT. You need to think about the comming 5-10 years not about the end of this year of even next year only!!

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RoMax
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Re: The future of Brussels Airlines with Lufthansa

Post by RoMax »

I was just thinking about some new maybe possible routes in Europe. I like to hear your opinion but don't beat me if I say something stupid. :P
-Bari: myair was flying 3 times a week with CRJ-900 (close to amount of pax of Avro's) but they are gonne now and it was a SN Brussels Airlines destination in the past. would be the 11 Italian destination after Linate.
-Amsterdam: Some flights in the morning to feed their AFI network
-Dublin: to feed AFI and it would be a new market
-Bucharest: now only codeshare with Tarom, wich want to join Skyteam or was it Oneworld :P
-Glasgow: now reason for that but It would be nice :P
-Kiev: to expand their East-European network
-Bordeaux: AF is gonne on this route and it can feed AFI if there are good connections
-Saint Petersburg: with codeshares with Rossiya or so and with connections with AFI, would be a nice destination.
-Valencia: just a nice place. :P
-Edinburgh: to fight with the new Ryanair route, they will fly from Charleroi
-Ljubljana: again a nice past destination
And some destinations wich can use more frequenties if they lost a codeshare with a non-*A partner or for another reason.
-Helsinki
-Paris: to reduce waiting times for incomming pax from AFI
-Prague
-Budapest
-Rome
-Nice: for better connections with AFI
Let me now what you think about this and if there are some things possible for next winter or next summer. I now some destinations will never come and can work, but let me now if this things can start the next 2-3 years.
Last edited by RoMax on 26 Aug 2009, 20:39, edited 4 times in total.

gumblebee
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Re: The future of Brussels Airlines with Lufthansa

Post by gumblebee »

Conti764 wrote:Maybe if they can promote their South-American network from IAH? But they already serve many S-A markets from EWR and currently CO only runs 3 destinations in Europe from IAH: CDG, LHR and AMS. The next route will be FRA. I don't think we will soon see a CO IAH-BRU rotation.
South American market via the US? Only if the US authorities seriously change their attitude towards security. I can think of nicer ways to pass a stopover than wasting time getting fingerprinted and getting a proctological examination thrown in for extra fun (OK the last bit may be slightly exaggerated).

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Re: The future of Brussels Airlines with Lufthansa

Post by Boeing747-nurse »

I agree with most of you that Africa will be the first and most important continent for SN to expand in the next comming years.
But I think that new long haul routes to North America will also follow very soon:
1.Within the LH-group, BRU will be a very ideal hub to fly to the USA and Canada. BRU is placed in a very dense/populated area in Western Europe ( catchment area of 20 million people = Benelux + Northern France + area around Köln, Aachen, Düsseldorf ), and most Atlantic orientated, compared to Vienna, Zürich or Munich; for instance, someone living in Bordeaux or Barcelona can fly quicker to the USA via BRU than Vienna or Munich.
2. LH is comming in the same catchment area of Air France-KLM; via their Brussels hub they will be ideally placed to steal their passengers. Now, many passengers also fly via AMS or CDG to North America. With Brussels also as a hub for North America, Star Alliance and LH can attack Skyteam and Air France-KLM better.
3. JFK; there is no Star Alliance partner with direct long haul flights between JFK and BRU. EWR is a very good airport and close to NYC but JFK still remains also a very important North American hub for SN, especially for their African passengers.
I've heard that LH would insist SN to open a JFK route, when the codeshare with AA will be ended ( but these are only rumours of course :-) . At the moment SN is very bottered with the soon ending of this codeshare.
I think this route will come quicker than we might think.

Most of all, I hope and I'm sure LH will turn this carrier into a more ambitious airline.

G.

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Re: The future of Brussels Airlines with Lufthansa

Post by Boeing747-nurse »

What I forgot to mention:

4. Cost efficiency ; within the LH group wich airline ( pilots and flight attendants ) will be the "cheapest"airline in operating costs( for example the amount of income for their fllying staff). This will also will have an influence on the routes (re)shuffle between the LH-group airlines...I know some of SN flying staff ( cabin attendants ) and in my opinion they are VERY flexible.

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Conti764
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Re: The future of Brussels Airlines with Lufthansa

Post by Conti764 »

@ MR_Boeing:

Talking in terms of 5-10 years is an eternity in aviation. Who knows whitch companies will be flying to BRU by then. So speaking on those terms is actually kinda vague. However, I don't see any substantial market between IAH and BRU.

@ Boeing747-nurse:

You have some valid arguments. But then again, LH is Star Alliance and I'm pretty sure LH will see things in a Star Alliance point of view, even more since they applied for (and got) US DoT Anti Thrust Immunity for transatlantic service together with UA, CO and AC. So it's easier for LH (and Star Alliance) to let UA, CO and AC fly transatlantic routes then to go through the hassle of SN requesting the rights to fly certain routes from BRU to North-America. Only when there are destinations in North-America which none of the *A carriers fly to and have a descent demand to BRU, a flight on SN-metal is a possibility.

Accept for one point, that is. Why would a JFK route from BRU be important for SN or their African pax? EWR is the superior airport in the NYC region, both for O&D and transfer pax.

cnc
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Re: The future of Brussels Airlines with Lufthansa

Post by cnc »

easyjet is selling 4 A321's
wouldn't those be useful for SN to perform AFI flights?
they should have to change the cabin interior though

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Re: The future of Brussels Airlines with Lufthansa

Post by Air Key West »

Indeed, a possible SN flight to JFK would not make any sense.
1. It would not offer any connections with a Star Alliance partner
2. If you have to be in NYC, it does not really make any difference whether you fly to JFK or to EWR. Actullay, EWR tends to be even more convenient for Manhattan.
3. Should SN ever fly to NYC on own metal, it will be to EWR (and probably in the evening).
It may sound more glamourous to fly to JFK than to EWR, but businesswise only EWR will make sense for SN if/when codeshares start with CO.

Reconfigured A321s (on the model of OS's A320s to the Middle East) could perhaps be an opportunity to open new routes to Bamako, Ouaga and Niamey. But what I don't know, is if these flights would need large cargo capacity which the A320s or A321s may not offer.

As for the remaining, I fully agree with tolipanebas's posts. It's depressing to see someone saying everything you are going to say (and probably in a more professional and knowlegeable way) before you have time to say it yourself :? ;)
In favor of quality air travel.

sn-remember
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Re: The future of Brussels Airlines with Lufthansa

Post by sn-remember »

Boeing747-nurse I completly agree with u :)

Of course AFI is the main target for SN (so much to develop there) BUT NATL is also important.
I would have thought like u that LH mgt team would probably work on that too.

But they just missed the YUL opportunity from BRU which they do not serve themselves (LX does)
This flight could have been profitable (as BOS and to my view NYK also or EWR) given the O/D demand (now diverted at CDG and AMS), the german and african feeding plus from the rest of Europe and ME.

Let's wait (not 2 long I hope) and see.

Btw pity that those A332 from LX are not transfered to SN
Last edited by sn-remember on 26 Aug 2009, 22:33, edited 1 time in total.

airbuske
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Re: The future of Brussels Airlines with Lufthansa

Post by airbuske »

Brussels Airlines will be moving its airport operations from terminal 4 tot terminal 2 at Madrid Barajas Airport due new upcoming code share agreement with Spanair on september the 30th!
Best regards,

Airbuske

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Re: The future of Brussels Airlines with Lufthansa

Post by Boeing747-nurse »

@Conti764;

JFK is listed 14th on the most important airports of the world ( in pax amounts; 47.716941pax ) compared to EWR on the 21th place( 36.367240 pax ) ( source: magazine aero international 10/2008 ). So JFK is still more important than EWR, and I think for every non US airline.
Swiss, LH and Austrian all have ( several ) daily direct flights to JFK.
There is a partner airline for SN in JFK: Jet Blue; in wich LH even has some stakes.

That's also why I think we will see an SN flight on SN metal to JFK in the ( near ) future.

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