The future of Brussels Airlines with Lufthansa

[summersso]

Apart from the US carriers and the charter airlines, who's still flying 767s to AFI these days?

LAN, British Airway and Qantas to name but three non-US, non-Charter airlines But I get your point, the A330 is a cut-above the 767, even if there might be a flaw with the pitot tubes...

[b720]

Ethiopian, Kenya airways, hainan..

[tolipanebas]

Sure, airlines are still happily operating the 767 today, even within AFI, but have a look at the sales figures of both planes: there's a reason why the A330 is selling like hot cakes even in today's harsh economic climate whereas the 767 is on life support for many years already (even throughout the biggest boom in aviation in history), despite the almost identical mission profiles and operating costs of both planes: that reason is the huge revenue generating cargo capacity of the A330 relative to the 767!

People often don't know about this and only look at the similar visual appearance and the pax numbers, but an A330-300 can carry as much cargo below deck as an entire Boeing 707 Freighter, wheras the Boeing 767 comes nowhere near! That's right: an A330-300 can carry up to 32 industry standard LD3 containers below deck, whereas a Boeing 767-300 can only accomodate 20 of the smaller and non-industry standard LD2 containers due to its narrower fuselage. On routes where there is a considerable demand of cargo, the choice really isn't a though one: SN (as in fact most airlines) have chosen for the A330 over the 767 and there's a very good reason for that! Millions of extra revenue in cargo, per year, per plane!

[tolipanebas]

Meanwhile, the cooperation with Lufthansa is being stepped up even further with the addition of 2 new codeshare agreements on those routes where SN and LH weren't codesharing yet: i.e MUC and MXP.

As of next week, SN will move to terminal 2 in MUC (i.e. the STAR alliance terminal) and so it can codeshare with LH on the route too. The number of daily frequencies offered between Brussels and Munich will total 11 (8 operated by LH and 3 by SN).

Simultaneously, Lufthansa Italia will start codesharing on the Brussels-Milan Malpensa operations of SN.

As such, all of Lufthansa's destinations to/from BRU will be operating in codeshare with SN...

[summersso]

Meanwhile, the cooperation with Lufthansa is being stepped up even further with the addition of 2 new codeshare agreements on those routes where SN and LH weren't codesharing yet: i.e MUC and MXP.

As of next week, SN will move to terminal 2 in MUC (i.e. the STAR alliance terminal) and so it can codeshare with LH on the route too. The number of daily frequencies offered between Brussels and Munich will total 11 (8 operated by LH and 3 by SN).

Simultaneously, Lufthansa Italia will start codesharing on the Brussels-Milan Malpensa operations of SN.

As such, all of Lufthansa's destinations to/from BRU will be operating in codeshare with SN...

Do you know if SN will start codeshare agreements with other LH Group airlines (Swiss and perhaps Austrian) and with other Star Alliance airlines? And if so, when?

(and the number of A330's selling like hotcakes is nothing to do with the delay in the A350XWB... )

[Established02]

Do you know if SN will start codeshare agreements with other LH Group airlines (Swiss and perhaps Austrian) and with other Star Alliance airlines? And if so, when?

SN has been codesharing with LX on ZRH, BSL and GVA for several years already.

[Air Key West]

Hi summersso ! b.air and Swiss have been code sharing for many years already on the flights between BRU and ZRH/GVA/BSL.
The ones of us that some will consider to be impatient or unrealistic, but who would rather call themselves pro-active, and I am one of the latter, will be astonished that b.air has not set up code sharing agreements yet with Spanair (JK) since both airlines have, if I remember well, the same three types of cabins and service on board their European flights. Furthermore, with the opening of the new (JK) Terminal at BCN last month, it would have been a great opportunity to start code sharing at that time. In addition, BCN is a hub for JK. But maybe SN and JK are harmonizing their schedules in order to offer optimal connections at BCN between both airlines. With JK, BCN is a gateway to the rest of Spain and its many domestic routes. From BCN, SN should be able to offer good connections via BRU to the North of Europe.
Some will say : things are easier said than done, but I don't see a lot happening, except for LH/SN co-operation where things seem to be moving.

And hi tolipanebas ! You say b.air and LH Italia will code share on the BRU MXP route. Do you by any chance know if the code share with AZ will remain or not ? Thanks.

[SN1203]

The ones of us that some will consider to be impatient or unrealistic, but who would rather call themselves pro-active, and I am one of the latter

May I go for option number 3, i.e. "making a lot of wind without knowing at least part of the background of some decisions"?

You never seem to be able to give the decisions by Brussels Airlines' management at least the advantage of the doubt. You often don't know in which situation they have to take certain decisions, why they have to take these decisions etc.

I don't see a lot happening, except for LH/SN co-operation where things seem to be moving.

Quite a lot is moving actually, but mainly behind the screens. Do not forget that an entry into Star Alliance doesn't necessarily mean that all partners want to reshuffle their network together with Brussels Airlines' network from the start! Imagine that you have both b.air and airline XX operating a profitable morning flight at 7am from BRU to business destination XXX. Who's going to operate this flight? If you have a flight that is contributing you 1 million EUR on an annual basis, who'll operate it and what is this airline go to give in return to the other airline? You need a strong business case before you can start this kind of negotiations. Behind the screens, lot's of negotiations are going on and I'm sure we can have full confidence in Brussels Airlines' team who's dealing with this!

the code share with AZ will remain or not ?

No.

@tolipanebas: thanks for giving an illustration on why airlines can't just start operating any type of aircraft (B767/A330 comparison). People seem to assume that you can just start operating any aircraft "because it seats 220 seats which is perfect for b.air". Operational restrictions, cost etc. are no longer an issue apparently.

With SN heavily depending on cargo too for their long haul operations, there is no chance they will ever operate anything else but the A330/A340 over the next few years and why the 767 -which is occasionally wetleaded to replace a grounded A330- is always sent to DKR: the only destination with relatively low cargo (i.e. a sort of charter destination to them) demand.

There are many other reasons as well why the B763 is not suitable for many of the other African destinations in b.air's network (one of them being that DKR is one of the shortest flights, so even with a few hours of delay after some irregularities on the outbound flight like a late positioning flight from the EuroAtlantic B763 from LIS to BRU, you'll be able to dispatch the aircraft on-time the next day as an arrival in BRU at 9h30 instead of 5h30 still gives you a 2h turn around for an 11h30 departure back to DKR).

[Air Key West]

Hi SN1203 ! I am glad my controversial posts spark some interesting reactions with some interesting info on your part. Thanks, even if it means being scolded. I don't mind if it's in the interest of the discussion forum. Upon your suggestion I might consider giving b.air's management the benefit of the doubt, but as a pax I am not impressed with their performance and am anxiously waiting for LH to take over. Sorry, but I'm entitled to express my opinion just like you are entitled to try and convince others I am wrong.

[euroflyer]

and the number of A330's selling like hotcakes is nothing to do with the delay in the A350XWB...

Well, if that would be the reason, than the B767 should still sell not only like hot cake, but like free beer - given the delays of the B787 programme. However, it does not - why?

[Conti764]

And hi tolipanebas ! You say b.air and LH Italia will code share on the BRU MXP route. Do you by any chance know if the code share with AZ will remain or not ? Thanks.

It seems only logical to me the codeshare with AZ will end, because what's the point of joining an alliance when you get in bed with a company from another alliance when you have an alternative in your own alliance?

SN already has a number of flights to different Italian airports, so maybe LH(i) will put it's number on these flights as well?

[sn26567]

the code share with AZ will remain or not ?

No.

Only for the Malpensa flights of for all the Brussels to Italy flights? It would be a pity to loose the codeshaing on Linate flights opeerated by AZ.

[Established02]

Only for the Malpensa flights of for all the Brussels to Italy flights?

Tutti

[Air Key West]

Actually, when I asked about the futute of the SN/AZ code share, my main question was what will be happen to the code shares to LIN. If SN/LH(i) codeshare on all flights to Italy, it would indeed, like Conti764 said, be logical to cancel the codeshares with AZ, but nothing is impossible. AF has codeshares with AY (oneworld) to HEL and with OS (Star A.) to VIE.
With the harmonisation of SN and LH(i) flights between BRU and MXP, b.air aircraft and crew could become available to fly to LIN if slots are available. LIN is a city airport with probably high revenue flights with high yield pax. b.air would however (in codeshare with LH) have to offer one morning, one afternoon and one evening flight. In addition to the current three AZ flights, a total of six BRU LIN BRU flights a day might seem to much. There might no be enough pax and/or not enough slots. However, my Italian friends and colleagues LOVE Lufthansa, so if b.air codeshares with LH and offers the same type of service (free drinks and snacks also at the back of the plane) I see no reason why the SN LH team up could not be a success, also to LIN.

[euroflyer]

Most people from Milan prefer LIN to MXP, it is just much closer to the City. But I think there are tough restrictions in place on who can offer how many flights from LIN. If I am correct LH has taken the Italian authorities to court before, as they seem to favour AZ in allocating slots at LIN. So I do not think it will be easy for SN to get slots at LIN.

[Conti764]

A little idea for SN...

They should evaluate different markets individually. Where there is some leisure or low cost demand, deploy your 'bigger' short to medium haul planes with three classes: bussenis, b.flex economy and b.light economy. C and b.flex just check in at the regular C/I and board via the jetway (like every two class flight) while the b.light pax check in at the LC terminal, be bussed to the airplane and either enter the plane via the stairs and the jetway or via additional stairs at the back of the plane, like normal LC operations. Since b.light pax are seated at the back of SN planes this is a good option, too. In the meanwhile you offer three levels of service to your clients.

Negotiate a good deal with BRU to pay less for these LC services so you can equally charge less for these pax.

This way they could sell seats to leisure companies (Jetair, Thomas Cook,...) to destinations which are known for a big tourism market (Rome, Barcelona, Paris, London,...) and fill their planes better. They can still offer their 'better paying' clients nice benefits. They can deboard at the gate and thus transfer to another flight while the b.light pax are being bussed to the LC terminal again, since they don't care about connections.

I my opinion this is a very efficient way of working and SN will manage to fill their planes better then before.

They could use their fleet as followed:

A319/A320/A321 (if one day bought of course) or 733/734: to either big bussenis destinations or destinations with a high leisure potential, using the above set-up.

The smaller equipmen (currently Avro's) can be used to smaller, bussenis-only destinations.

[HighInTheSky]

Conti764, with all due respect, but this is about the most stupid idea I've ever read

SN has to take a descison: either low cost, or full service. Otherwise LH and *A will say 'Thank you, but no thank you'...

These are already a few remarks:
They would have to pay for 2 gates (1 bridge + 1 bussing gate), 2 (at least) gate agents
What about the dozens of connecting pax who are seated in b light?

Now, let's focus on the full service part Anybody an idea about when this could be re-implemented?

[SN1203]

Hi SN1203 ! I am glad my controversial posts spark some interesting reactions

You can always contact me privately (private messages) if there's anything you'd like to discuss.

C and b.flex just check in at the regular C/I and board via the jetway (like every two class flight) while the b.light pax check in at the LC terminal, be bussed to the airplane and either enter the plane via the stairs and the jetway or via additional stairs at the back of the plane

How do you handle connecting passengers? How do you avoid unnecessary confusion by opening check-in counters at two different places? How do you cover the cost of all the bus transports & staff presence in a new terminal while you have staff & facilities in the existing terminals? Why pay for a bus transport if you already pay for a jetbridge? Sorry but you're only adding confusion, creating additional costs etc. while you are not attracting a single additional passenger.

they can deboard at the gate and thus transfer to another flight while the b.light pax are being bussed to the LC terminal again, since they don't care about connections.

Do you have figures on Brussels Airlines' connecting passengers, in which class of service they're booked etc? Lot's of connecting pax are actually b.light pax...

A319/A320/A321 (if one day bought of course) or 733/734: to either big bussenis destinations or destinations with a high leisure potential, using the above set-up.

The smaller equipmen (currently Avro's) can be used to smaller, bussenis-only destinations.

If scheduling would only be as easy as "just planning a plane where you need it". There are actually lot's of crew/aiport/.... restrictions you need to take in mind, certainly for Brussels Airlines with its very mixed fleet and unionized crews with irrealistic demands (just teasing one of b.air's pilot community forum members here ).

[HighInTheSky]

I've just read on Luchtvaartnieuws that SN and LH started their codeshares on Africa ops. SN will put its code on LH's flight to Libreville and LH will put it's code on SN's flight Entebbe.

Strange that we didn't recieve an internal mail or see an official press release...

Anyway, let the codeshares begin! I'm guessing that a lot of them will follow.

[sn26567]

Strange that we didn't recieve an internal mail or see an official press release...

No need to go to Luchtvaartnieuws. Just look bettter in Luchtzak: viewtopic.php?p=219322#p219322 (published yesterday)