Future of Brussels Airlines

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cyclingcedric
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Joined: 23 Sep 2007, 19:04

Future of Brussels Airlines

Post by cyclingcedric »

Hello everyone,
With all the cancellations and bad image Brussels Airlines is getting is there a future you think?
Pilots are leaving by the mass, important managers(eg Ulf Weber) leaving the company and more, more technical problems over most of the entire fleet and passengers who don't like the new flex/light concept. What is it that they are trying to achieve? In my opinion it's impossible to combine full service flights(Africa) and "low cost"(Europe) flights.
There are plenty of examples of companies who have tried this before, to name one Austrian.
A couple of months ago they announced more direct flights to Kinshasa and now it seems there will be just one direct flight a week. Why still start the African company then? No passenger will want to fly BRU-DLA-FIH and then connect from there to LAD. They will prefer to fly with TAP. They have to focus again on the needs of the long haul passengers, offer better onboard service, get more aircrafts to the passengers to their destination direct.
This is just what I think, how about everyone else?

Air Key West
Posts: 1107
Joined: 23 Jun 2007, 20:51
Location: BRU

Post by Air Key West »

I fully agree with you.
You cannot combine full service long haul flights with low cost service in Europe.
If they set up a mini hub in FIH, the flights from BRU to FIH should, indeed, be nonstop (as they have announced, but they apparently changed their minds). No way flying BRU DLA FIH to connect to, for instance, Luanda in FIH. Too long, too cumbersome.
b.light b.flex doesn't seem to work as low load factors indicate (see another Topic on this forum). Yet, they are more than ever strongly promoting their b.flex product (see the stupid ads on billboards along the road when leaving the airport by car). In French we call it "la fuite en avant" : realizing you're wrong, not admitting it and doing more of the same.
b.air is showing again they are amateurs (ze bricoleren / ils bricolent).
I practically never fly with them anymore. I give my money to real professionals.
I feel truly sorry for their employees, from the most qualified (probably the pilots) to the ones in the lower functions. It's a shame !
Last edited by Air Key West on 23 Sep 2007, 21:22, edited 1 time in total.
In favor of quality air travel.

BigJets
Posts: 136
Joined: 27 Mar 2005, 00:00

Post by BigJets »

"Future" and "Brussels Airlines" now there's a contradiction.

What future?

Ducatibiker
Posts: 236
Joined: 01 Apr 2006, 00:00

Post by Ducatibiker »

In a situation like this, an e-mail should be sent to all the Privilege members explaining the situation - flights cancelled, etc... with some 'thank you for staying with a present such as miles bonus...".
Instead, management pretends it is business as usual which shows their weakness.

This is an emergeny. This is not an exercice. This an emergency and it looks almost like the Titanic - they already took the Champagne away !

brussels airlines
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Joined: 10 Jan 2007, 16:51
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Post by brussels airlines »

All of you don't know anything about it. Your speculating and making from your own opinion a fact. You like KLM-Air France ? My father is a managing director of an international company, he had a business meeting in Amsterdam, chose KLM: flight was overbooked. No excuses, no refund, nothing.

I don't understand you people; when brussels airlines is anouncing some good news, you all try to find the most negative out of it. When there is some bad news like flight cancelations (wich happen at all airlines) you are there first to comment.

I'm sick of you people who all think they are top managers from world leading airlines. And I hoped as a Belgian aviation enthousiast, the Belgian people would be more supportive to the Belgian airline.

Don't forget there is a reason why they don't have business class anymore: because it WASN'T profitable. We will see the figures for Brussels Airlines next year and I'am pretty sure they will have an increase of pax on European flights.

And all don't forget b.light is a service on its own: parents with 2-3 children can go on holiday now by plane. Those people don't need a 5 stars meal on board and champagne.
And b.flex is offering much more value for money than with other airlines.

And if you really can't fly without champagne, than you should indeed fly another airline and drive to Amsterdam or Paris.

We will never see brussels airlines flying with 15-20 long haul jets, 50 mid-short haul, an own ground handling, flight academy and destinations all over the world: for one simple reason: THEY DON'T HAVE THE MONEY.

Do people hate you when you don't have money and have to buy a second hand car ?

I really hope in the future, people on these forums will be more positive about our Belgian airline.

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lumumba
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Location: brussels Europe

Post by lumumba »

Hi Brussels Airlines.
IT WAS PERFECT.
Thax
Patrice
Hasta la victoria siempre.

FLY4HOURS.BE
Posts: 454
Joined: 01 May 2007, 22:13
Location: Antwerp, Belgium

Post by FLY4HOURS.BE »

Member B.air is right in a few points.
We can't blaim an airline because it can't do whatever it would like to because of lack of money.

Instead of blaming management for being unreliable people, we should be thankful to them for maintaining something of the Belgian aviation history and at the same time, giving a numberless of people a daily job.

As passengers and outsiders we can/do blame B.light/B.flex because it simply is something a bit crazy.
B.Light itself seems to be working ok. It is a low-cost formula based on the "book fast-book cheap" theory.
The problem is in B.Flex. Ok, some business people want to feel important, or relax during their flight, or enjoy a fast meal, or work a little bit, or be able to rebook.
But most of the flights of B.air don't even last 2 hours.

If they want a hot meal, they will pay for it.
If they want an extra-seat, or a whole row to sleep on, they can pay for it.
If they want to book the day before, they can pay for it.
If they want to rebook, they can pay for it.
They want Champagne? Ok if they can afford it.
But loosing seats "because they are only for the B.flex product" is something that is not affordable and very avoidable, certainly when there are people ready to pay a certain price for the late booking, but not the big extra imposed by B.flex, just for the chicken and the free seat in-between.

The problem now is that there is no uniformity between the two products, only their similar name.
Last edited by FLY4HOURS.BE on 23 Sep 2007, 22:58, edited 1 time in total.
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Air Key West
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Joined: 23 Jun 2007, 20:51
Location: BRU

Post by Air Key West »

I hate AF-KL. And I have not heard ANY good news from b.air since they were borne. As I said in previous posts. I liked snba. Now it's a different kind of story.
They switched to new products because the European flights weren't profitable.
The African flights were profitable. However, what many people seem to forget is that the African flights are profitable thanks to the non profitable European feeder flights. No European flights. No feeder flights. No profitable African flights.
And check the load factors (on another Topic) since April when b.air started to operate. Figures are bad. The new products are bad. B.Light is not cheaper than snba's former economy. There has not been ANY good news from b.air since they started to operate.
Last edited by Air Key West on 23 Sep 2007, 23:32, edited 1 time in total.
In favor of quality air travel.

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lumumba
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Post by lumumba »

Hi Key West.
The Load Factors are not bad!
Where did you get this info from.
Maybe it's not growing anymore in some month's but there are not bad.
We have to look at the yields and this info we don't have right now.
Another point it's if they really grow in Africa they will for sure have a better yield and load factor.
I just did 4 flight's to Africa and they where AL FULL BOOKED.
End of September that's not bad.
Regards
Patrice
Hasta la victoria siempre.

Ducatibiker
Posts: 236
Joined: 01 Apr 2006, 00:00

Post by Ducatibiker »

*This is an emergency, not an exercice. On the Titanic, some people also pretended that everything was fine and business as usual
*The increase of PAX does not mean anything if revenue and margins go down.
*You actually put the finger on something important and the reason why I started writing: my customers flying to BRU using Brussels Airlines do not believe it is a Belgian Airline when they receive German marmelade, Free Sample of Friskie and Instant coffee in a paper cup...I think that this country has a better international image than the one currently given by Brussels Airlines.
*By the way, I believe that the parents with the children who will receive Champagne might remember this airline for ever...as some of us do remember Sabena for ever, or Pan Am, or Jet Airways or any airline who did or does put service on the agenda !

BigJets
Posts: 136
Joined: 27 Mar 2005, 00:00

Post by BigJets »

Although this is important, the quality of their services is the least of Brussels Airlines' problems.

1) More than 4 out of every 10 seats is empty on the European network! what is the solution? Give tickets away (B-light)?

2) Whether they like it or not, low cost airlines are in Brussels and they are here to stay. SkyEurope, Vueling, EasyJet, Sterling, (Air Berlin?) and many others are here or are soon to come. Brussels Airlines will be massacred .

3) They will soon need to replace the fleet. What is the solution? Order new aircraft? They don't even have the money to LEASE new aircraft, not to mention new ones! To even think of ordering Russian aircraft shows how weak they really are. Have they ever considered what support they would get for these aircraft in Brussels AND at outstations?

4) The merger between SN Brussels and Virgin. What merger? Painting the aircraft in the same color and giving everyone the same uniform is not exactly a merger. Crews from both airlines are barely speaking to each other, let alone saying hello. On a management level, new positions are being "created" for those who are being replaced by someone else. Those new (useless or sucker) positions are under the "SAME" (financial) conditions as the positions they had. Is this your low cost airline? is this efficiency?

4) Jet Airways seems to be a sign of relief for Brussels Airlines, but is it? The media is full of the great news. Jet Airways has come and will make Brussels it's new hub AND they will work together with Brussels Airlines (code shares, Frequent Flyer programs, etc...)! This is just peanuts. It hardly means anything because the flights out of India, continuing to the US and Canada are practically already full! this means the aircraft only land in Brussels for refueling (and some duty free shopping) and then they continue their journey. yes, there are some people that get off and even connect to other European cities. 2 for Venice, 3 to Paris, one for Copenhagen? Is this really going to make the difference? There is a saying "You're never better served than by yourself" this is also true in aviation. An example: Brussels Airlines was code sharing with Etihad to Toronto. Point to point there are about 7500 passengers a year travelling from Brussels to Toronto and v.v. To Montreal there are 53000 passengers a year. Then why choose for Toronto? Because it was Etihad's decision to fly there, not Brussels Air. This is a strategy for Etihad. The flight even arrived in Toronto so late that passengers continuing to Montreal missed all possible connections and v.v.. The same is true for Jet Airways what concerns schedules and strategy. THEY decide where and when they fly, Brussels Airlines only follows. Jet Airways is not a solution for Brussels Airlines' problems. if you want to do something you do it yourself or suffer the consequences!

5) Pilot shortage. Yes pilots (and others) are leaving the company. The fact that they leave due to the high taxes on their salaries is one reason but certainly not the only one. Job insecurity due to misinformation and the stagnating state (lack of growth) of the airline with no view to any future promotions are certainly other important factors. With the exception of 3 A319 a few years back and an A330 there has been no growth in this airline. new destinations have been added but, (behind the scenes) other routes have been scrapped to compensate. Wherever there is competition, Brussels Airlines decides not to go, instead preferring to code share with the competition (if you can't beat them, join them). Unions have always forbidden the airline to lease aircraft (and crew) from other airlines to keep job security in Belgium. Now they have the perfect excuse. They don't have enough pilots! This will not last as there will soon be a lowering of the tax burden for Belgian pilots flying for Belgian airlines making flying in belgium slightly moer interesting than it is today. Where are the aircraft going to be when pilots come back? in Africa?

6) Brussels Airlines has a total lack of vision for the future. They can't even do anything when business is up? What is Brussels Airlines going to do when business will be down? Where is their business plan? Do they even have a business plan? Air Key West: you are right: They are amateurs! Pure and simple. People are joining this airline full of enthusiasm and expectations. After a while they end up disappointed and frustrated, adding to the already bleak outlook for it's future.

This all seems very negative and it even seems like bashing but it IS the TRUTH! The entire world is booming in aviation. Airlines are ordering aircraft by the dozens. These are GOOD times for aviation.

One word of advice to the people at Brussels Airlines GET OUT OF THERE!

A slight positive side is the attempt to start up the new airline in Africa but as we all know, Africa is very volatile. Anything can happen in time and then it's all over. Back to square one. Remember Sabena in 1960? They were concentrating on only one thing: Africa. The rest of the world was forgotten. airlines like KLM, Air France, Lufthansa and British Airways have diversified. Look where they are today. look where Belgian aviation is today....

SabenaForever
Posts: 502
Joined: 24 Dec 2003, 00:00

Post by SabenaForever »

I'am really getting sick of this.... please people, if you won't to discuss about the future of Brussels Airlines, make a website and help your there!

There are thousands of topics on this forum of BA and it is always the same, nothing new... Ok, every one has there own opinion, but I'am realising that there alot of people here doesn't now where there speaking of it....

Air Key West
Posts: 1107
Joined: 23 Jun 2007, 20:51
Location: BRU

Post by Air Key West »

True. Many people don't know what they are talking about.
BigJets : your very long story is a very accurate analysis. The best on this forum so far.
Patrice (lumumba), there is another Topic on this Forum called "Brussels Airlines load factors" with AEA load factors charts. Unless I misinterpret them (and it's always possible I make a mistake ; have made mistakes before :wink: ), but I really think these charts are bad for b.air.
True of course, that revenue is more important than load factors, but since b.air tends to mainly sell cheap tickets in Europe, low load factors combined with low fares usually give bad financial results. Let's wait for the Q2+3 figures (hope b.air publishes them early in October). If the figures for the two summer quarters are bad, don't expect the results for the two winter quarters to be good. Let's wait for the Q2+3 figures first.
In favor of quality air travel.

Voice of Reason
Posts: 10
Joined: 23 Mar 2007, 13:24

Post by Voice of Reason »

There is only one problem with B Air, shortage of managers. If only we had a few more. Maybe some of the plane spotters here could fill in for a while? The bad news is that all the parking spaces have been taken already and you will need to park your company car about 1.5 Km away with the crew. Plenty of space there.

cyclingcedric
Posts: 4
Joined: 23 Sep 2007, 19:04

Post by cyclingcedric »

to brussels airlines:
When was the last time any good news has been reported? Opening of a new route? Why don't they mention the closing of an existing route?
No Money? True because they're not looking ahead. They should have opened routes to China and india themselves maybe? With a fleet of 4 long haul aircrafts that are constantly having technical problems it's hard to run a decent airline. Why not take some A320's or Boeing 737's to serve West Africa? BMed is a good example for this.

to SabenaForever:
This is an open forum, so people can say what's on their mind. Don't continue reading if you already know what people will be talking about in this topic.
It would be better to focus on their own company, especially long haul sector and a decent service again for their European sector instead of
starting up a company in Africa.

FLY4HOURS.BE
Posts: 454
Joined: 01 May 2007, 22:13
Location: Antwerp, Belgium

Post by FLY4HOURS.BE »

To even think of ordering Russian aircraft shows how weak they really are
I'm not defending B.Air but they will probably have Embraer's.
The SSJ is rolling out next week Tuesday, and is far from being a bad aircraft. It has all modern technology and Russian know-how. The reason why Russian aviation has a bad reputation is that althought they build overbuilt aircraft, there is a lack of safety in their operations, due to cost-cutting everywhere.
This will not last as there will soon be a lowering of the tax burden for Belgian pilots flying for Belgian airlines making flying in belgium slightly moer interesting than it is today
Very unlikely
More than 4 out of every 10 seats is empty on the European network! what is the solution? Give tickets away (B-light)?
What about painting some advertisements on the aircraft? There are companies ready to pay the right money for that.
Giving tickets away is a good solution for long-term: That's an advertisement in itself and people will start thinking: B.Air is cheap!! and it will help build a good customer basis, while compensating losses.
You know, when you operate more than 200 flights per day, 200€ of extra revenue on each flight is 40 000€ less you lose, and 40 000€ more the competition loses. On a yearly basis that brings dozens of millions of extra revenue.

But let's all wait and see. This is just the first year for B.air, they still need to gather the statistics for every route and for every season.
Once they know that, they will be able to offer better promotions.
For instance the route to CAG was such a success this summer that they decided to have some flights in the winter too!

The pilot shortage is a problem everyone is thinking about but a member here told me there will be an announcement soon and that the contract with Flightline has been cancelled.(Because the MD-83 was too big)
Why not take some A320's or Boeing 737's to serve West Africa?
The CASM on these aircraft is too high for those routes. Remember also that every slot needs to be paid for and there is no money to lease those aircraft.
Fly4hours, making the path to airline pilot affordable to all

Ducatibiker
Posts: 236
Joined: 01 Apr 2006, 00:00

Post by Ducatibiker »

I also like the analysis of Big Jets (his post at 11:29) and share his views. An important item for me is pricing in Business. UA/LH has some very competitive pricing/promotions in C/Z. Jet Airways has to offer matching or better rates out of BRU.

I especially agree with Big Jets ending remark on the African network strategy. Pan Am did also neglect its domestic market and it turned out to be a disaster.

Air Key West
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Location: BRU

Post by Air Key West »

Hi ! Fly4hours : you said the MD83 contract(s) were cancelled because the planes are too big. Did the management realize this after reading it here in comments on this forum ? They should have known that and should not even have considered leasing these planes. I'm repeating myself, I know, but they are amateurs. So, any idea what's going to happen next ?

Like you I'm sceptical about a tax solution for pilots. The present governement can in principle only deal with current affairs, not new "dossiers". And the new government will have other priorities. But I hope I'm wrong.

As to the Russian SSJ, in principle I would not object to flying a modern Russian aircraft, but with regards to comfort, in economy class (which is all b.air has on most European routes), Sukhoi is offering a seat width of just over 16 inches. Last week, I was on a Luxair Q400 (it landed safely :roll: ) and I measured the seat width : 16.5 inches and it was very narrow seating even for a slim (= slank/mince) person like me.
I hope you're right and they will get Embraers. I like them.
In favor of quality air travel.

Cartman
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Joined: 22 Feb 2006, 00:00
Location: BRU

Post by Cartman »

Air Key West wrote:Did the management realize this after reading it here in comments on this forum ? They should have known that and should not even have considered leasing these planes.
Don't get too cocky. I don't think their bussiness plan or other imprtant decisions will be based on what amateur enthousiasts write on this forum (in a pretty impulsive way from time to time...)
I'm in love with my lust, burning angelwings to dust, I wish I had your angel tonight...
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ERICAIRLINES
Posts: 154
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Post by ERICAIRLINES »

Problem of Bru air is that the ex sabena staff who still work for them(almost 80 pct)were the worst they kept..those afraid or leaving when the curator took over operations...thes best employees (with a few exceptions)..same for ex 'vex' (even worse)...and vex was also full of ex sabeniens staff....
Now they are doing what they can..a mix of low cost,with a very limited long haul network based on Africa and only codeshares (codeshare airline?)...why are they taking additonal risks in Africa before consolidating their main activities....
Bru Air has nothing to do in Africa in terms(domestic flights I mean) of launching mini hub or whatever...this bad decision could sink de all company!!
Africa is and always was a very unsteady location to make some business and even more in terms of local aviation..

For the rest,it is too late...high yields pax already choosed to travel with the 4 majors (af,kl,lh,ba)...and lx,os,ib,tp,lo are not doing too bad in bru...

Or they choose to become a real low cost airline mainly in Europe..or they start looking for a financial partner(strong if possible)and to finaly join one Alliance...(one world?)

BA (the real one)is my best choice and bet,as BRU aiport situation in the very heart of Europe is a gold asset....even more with the open skies agreement coming up soon...

9w is possible,maybe for the finance,they don't lack of money...

I don't see VS or SQ investing in Bru air....and even less other major airlines.
How is it possible to hire an ex Proximus CEO as airline CEO,even of this person is very competent in telecom,airline is a totaly different business?

Bru air desperatly needs à major recapitalization and a new business plan,and to choose between low cost/low fares or full services...

Being a full services airlines does not prohibit them to have some very low promotional fares(question of yields)...

But the actual configuration of Bru air has no future...and if they choose to become a low fares airline,they will also need to become a low costs,meaning sending C4 to hundreds of no more needed staff...

See the easyjet and ryanair models(interview of FR ceo in trends).

If they want to choose the full services model it is about time to change their strategy and asap....


nb:about the YYZ/yul debate it is not new...everybody knows that yul has 6 or 7 times more potential than YYZ,but as you said,it is their codeshare partner which choose the destinations served....yul is no high yield destination it is also true,but at least it has a strong trafic potential...yyz has a slighty higher yield but no pax potential out of bru and will never have...

nb2:what will happen following the political issue in 'belgium'?Brussels airline will only serve Brussels and wallonia?? lol
Will we have VLM taking over some Bru air routes..?? lol
I'm joking but ...in belgium even the worse is always possible!!

In summary,main asset of Bru air indirectly is BRU...a perfect airport to create and hub and spoke network(it has been rebuild in that purpose for sabena)...this is the only reason why 9w choosed BRU !!

We should capitalize more on this jewel,as capacities in cdg,lhr,fra,muc,ams etc are getting limited...

I hope that Bru air will soon find (2009/2010?)a new owner which will have a real vision and will be ambitious for our airport and our (ex)national company....
But once again even with a solid long range network it will not be so easy to regain pax who since the end of sabena choosed LH,BA,AF etc because of the frequent flyers programs...they are logged in.

For leisure pax it is not so important,the low fare is the most important and if possible a non stop flight..but for business oriented pax,it is an important issue (miles,frequencies,non stop flights,alliance,connections,services etc)...

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