Solution for Belgian pilots?

fly · Post by **fly** » 26 Sep 2007, 09:26

on A319/330 ok might be , but thats only a small portion of SN most of their pilots will never fly the A319/330. And when you compare this salary to the one you get when you go and work in a neighbour country of belgium the 6000 euro would be the FO salary and around 10000 for a capt.
Until a couple of months ago I was FO on the avro at SN and my salary was way inferior to the 3000 euro you mentioned it was more like 1800 euro almost half , and I did have a couple of years seniority......
thats why so many people are leaving.....

A390 · Post by **A390** » 26 Sep 2007, 17:53

Was your salary really only 1800 EUR GROSS???
And now only 3000 EUR gross for a longhaul FO?

fly · Post by **fly** » 26 Sep 2007, 18:40

no, I was talking about nett salary.....

FLY4HOURS.BE · Post by **FLY4HOURS.BE** » 26 Sep 2007, 18:59

Until a couple of months ago I was FO on the avro at SN and my salary was way inferior to the 3000 euro you mentioned it was more like 1800 euro almost half , and I did have a couple of years seniority......

I should check if they meaned 3000€/6000€ net or gross, because I'm not sure.
And yes it looks beautiful in the beginning when you start, you get TR and line training at the airline's charge, but after a couple of years, you see people leaving...
Maybe B.air should play it smart and apply longer bond periods? Young pilots desperately and hungrily seeking a carreer will sign anyway.

Corto · Post by **Corto** » 26 Sep 2007, 19:29

fly wrote:I don't know where you get this info of 3000 euro for an FO and 6000 euro for a capt, but when I worked for Brussels Airlines not to long ago for a couple of years we did not have these kind of salaries.
However I get the drift of tax deduction in Belgium now, my apologies.....
I still think however that the solution would be to decrease the income tax on employees who spent most of their time outside belgium whilst still working for a belgian employer (like aviation crew) .

Fly,
I strongly believe that this will never happens, and what makes me so convinced of it is tha following FACT:

Prostitution is illegal in Belgium and considered as a misdemeanour; however, the governement of Belgium perceives taxes on the income of prostitutes who have no way to declare a legal activity. We can henceforth consider that the tax perceiver on this profession behaves like a pimp, doesn't he?
This might explain why pimping is considered as a crime: it is competition to the governement!
Knowing that a pimp will work and exploit his source of revenue until it (she) is exhausted, unuseable or dead, what do you think are the chances of seing the taxes on pilots being somehow or to any extend waived?

FLY4HOURS.BE · Post by **FLY4HOURS.BE** » 29 Sep 2007, 02:18

Anyone knows when these measures will be voted at the parlament?

Greets

Johan23 · Post by **Johan23** » 29 Sep 2007, 09:46

@ FLY,

you have to mention your allowances to. Now people here think you only get 1800 a month whilst it is a bit more. Average of 950 Euro net allowances a month.
Making a tot al of 2750 average. It is not that much, but sounds better then only 1800/month. This was misleading info of you.

Regards

fly · Post by **fly** » 29 Sep 2007, 09:59

listen my friend ,
this is not at all misleading info as...
1. you need your allowance to eat and drink "live" when you are in outstation..... unless you stay in your room untill pickup.
2. When they don't let you fly or you don't get nightstops or your in the sim or doing a course or sick or on holiday, you don't get anything.
3. when you will be doing longhaul someday you will see that ALL of your daymoney or per diem will go to "living in outstation " as it is a lot more expensive than in belgium most of the time.

... so from the 750 euro you claim you get monthly.... you take only about 250 home... and that is on MH, in my eyes 250 is nothing compared what you could get somewhere else....

edit...
I just reread your post you claimed 950 average a year per month...
I never got this amount it was more like 500 max 750 a month AVERAGE.

to Corto,

I don't think it will happen either although I wish it would..
Its commen knowledge in the aviation world that we are prostitutes...

8)
For now gentlemen I will leave you and order some food before my pickup later on.....bye

Pikey · Post by **Pikey** » 29 Sep 2007, 11:54

On an average of 6 nightstops you use 950 Euro's? Ok everybody has his way of living.
About long-haul, Afric more expensive then Belgium?

Johan23 · Post by **Johan23** » 29 Sep 2007, 12:06

What year are we talking about fly?

Thing is that conditions at Bru Air are not the best on the market, I completely agree on hat one. I also agree that conditions should improve. Although bear in mind that some of us make them sound much worse than they are.
A net salary on average of 2750 a month is not that bad, compared to other sectors in Belgium.
BTW that 950 is an average taken over a whole year, that's why I called it an average. So sims, courses, sickness all included.

950 Euro spent on 6 nightstops/ month, you must like expensive restaurants

Cheers

fly · Post by **fly** » 29 Sep 2007, 12:08

Sir read my post again,

I can use up 500 euros per month no problem....
And yes when you fly longhaul it is much more expensive then flying shorthaul and I didn't refer to ONLY Africa.
3 meals a day or maybe 2 , some drinks, visiting , keeping conatct with home ,etc.......... espacially in parts of the world like UK, US, Asia......

Johan23 · Post by **Johan23** » 29 Sep 2007, 12:53

We are talking Bru Air, and as far as I know, only Africa is a long haul destination. Correct me if I'm wrong.

fly · Post by **fly** » 29 Sep 2007, 13:15

No sir we are talking about improving conditions for BELGIAN pilots .
Anyway, I think will all agree it has to improve.
Although I bich about Bair it was a great company to fly for with a lot of nice collegues, I liked it a lot.

FLY4HOURS.BE · Post by **FLY4HOURS.BE** » 29 Sep 2007, 21:57

I've got interesting figures from the UK showing a decreasing tendancy in the last decade of overall ATPL students/new ATPL holders by more than 20%, while the British fleet is told to be growing at a rate of 4% per year.

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/175/2005%20Ai ... nly)p2.pdf

Obviously the new generations are not interested by this job as much as the people in the pre-9/11 period.

No wonder there is a pilot shortage in all Europe, and unless alot of people of 30+ years start holding their ATPL (which is not very probable), UK is gonna have big problems when the 38-45 generation of pilots will start to retire in 5 to 12 years.

Air Key West · Post by **Air Key West** » 29 Sep 2007, 22:03

Don't expect the government to do something. There is no real government at the moment. And if ever there is a new one, it will concentrate on "communautaire" questions. You pilots, you have a union or a professional organisation, don't you ? When are you going to decide on a warning strike ? For instance, a two-hour-work-stoppage on a Tuesday midday (when there is usually less pax traffic) in order not to penalize your passengers, but in order to warn and hopefully wake-up your respective managements ?
Isn't it time they seriously consider delocalizing you, for instance to Luxembourg (as it was already considered several years ago) or to France where you are (rightly so) considered to be "artists" with a preferential tax treatment. A subsidiary in Lille and you'll become transborder workers (grensarbeiders/transfrontaliers). I'm sure there are several options worthwhile considering (some more realistic than others). But I would not wait too long to take action. They need you. There aren't ten pilots waiting for the job of each pilot they would consider to fire because of an industrial action. Start with a mild warning action. (I wonder what kind of reactions this post is going to trigger / cannot wait to read them).

dre · Post by **dre** » 30 Sep 2007, 11:55

ok here we go than:

1. A work stop at tuesday midday has consequences for evening peak so you will punish all pax, not the ones on tuesday midday alone. Take into account duty times of crews and shortages of crews so that means lots of flights cancelled as well in the evening perhaps.

2. Transborder work is not applicable for people working onboard aircraft in international traffic, they have a special treatment in european law.

3. Delocalising, i agree, could be an option for the management of the company. A take over by Jet Airways could do the trick without changing the rest, everybody on Indian contract...

4. Strikes have never solved big problems in belgian aviation....

Grtz

Air Key West · Post by **Air Key West** » 30 Sep 2007, 21:55

OK, I can accept that.
But I don't think the government is going to do something (I hope they will, but...).
I don't think Jet Airways is interested in taking over b.air (but I truly wish they will).
And if pilots don't make a move, nothing is going to move (according to Belga en De Morgen, b.air management is only CONSIDERING (overwegen/envisager) to buy three medium haul aircraft to make it possible for their pilots to move to a career elsewhere (the most unbelievable statement of the year in the airlines sector).
Well, for those who can, the only solution will probably be to find a job abroad.

LX-LGX · Post by **LX-LGX** » 01 Oct 2007, 00:12

Air Key West wrote: According to Belga en De Morgen, b.air management is only CONSIDERING (overwegen/envisager) to buy three medium haul aircraft to make it possible for their pilots to move to a career elsewhere (the most unbelievable statement of the year in the airlines sector).

This anti-Brussels Airlines post (nr 839?) is really unbelievable: you're blaming the airline for what a journalist from a quite unreliable newspaper like DM writes about possible (and unconfirmed) plans.

Air Key West · Post by **Air Key West** » 03 Oct 2007, 15:59

1. Why is De Morgen an unreliable newspaper ?
2. Their source seems to be Belga, Belgium's main press agency (also unreliable ?).
And there is one important thing a small number of people on luchtzak seem to forget : this is a discussion forum, not a tribunal. And as far as I know we are still free to discuss what newspaper write. But I realize that a (fortunately) very small number of people would like to censor opinions they don't like.

LX-LGX · Post by **LX-LGX** » 03 Oct 2007, 16:38

Air Key West wrote:1. Why is De Morgen an unreliable newspaper ?
2. Their source seems to be Belga, Belgium's main press agency (also unreliable ?).
And there is one important thing a small number of people on luchtzak seem to forget : this is a discussion forum, not a tribunal. And as far as I know we are still free to discuss what newspaper write. But I realize that a (fortunately) very small number of people would like to censor opinions they don't like.

Yes, sure, go on, say what you want to say. Feel free to discuss about the three new planes that Brussels Airlines will buy. Have your say about the reasons why. Plenty of possibilities, as the only source for this fleet extension is (and the reason why) is ... just one unconfirmed article from a non-aviation journalist. I prefer to wait for the official press release from Brussels Airlines.

(it's Belga who took over this supersensational news from DM. But then, the editor in chief at Belga is the former editor in chief at DM, so it doens't surprise me. Friends help friends).

(a reliable newspaper would double check a scoop with the main source = the airline)

(a reliable newspaper will never write that the union delegates from an airline have to agree with the purchase of new planes)