Heavy gate shortage at BRU?

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Conti764
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Re: Heavy gate shortage at BRU?

Post by Conti764 » 02 Oct 2008, 14:27

BrightCedars wrote:I definitely think that the initial project of extending the A-pier to the West, if I'm not mistaken, in any case to the side where there currently is nothing, will soon have to be put into concretization.
They can only start construction when the tunnel underneath is completed, so don't expect this extension for the first few years.
This will allow for a terminal of a size and capacity similar to that of the current A-pier to help double the capacity of the A-pier and allow for another 5 million passengers at least. Needless to say that some more long-haul non-Schengen capacity is required and that the reallocation of part of the existing A-pier can only be seen as a temporary solution.
Extending the A-pier is one solution, but not the solution. Only a new terminal is a real solution for extending capacity at BRU. This could be build at the current location of the former DHL hangers and SN Technics.
What is really needed is to build the C-pier in lieu of the now defunct finger and said-to-be protected satellite. I still don't understand that monument status issue with the satellite if it is founded, I mean it's more a practical building than a monument. And it seems the main original terminal building is being kept. I truly hope this is a pipe dream and one day or another we'll see the C-pier being erected. Should SN only double their long-haul fleet in the next 4 years, there will be more and more trouble. I think a good C-pier and the 2nd wing of the A-pier would take the facility to a capacity near the 50 million mark. Which will leave room for growth, and I'm not seeing the airport being extended further than that. If needed, the average capacity of aircraft will have to rise like it does at many other airports where there is saturation.
The satellite is being transformed into an office building, the C-pier will only be used as a corridor between those offices and the old terminal.

What I don't understand is that they reserved so much space for LC and leisure flights. I would have just refurbished the satellite and used those 8 parking spaces (maybe extend it to 9 or 10 since there is no use of jetways anymore) for LC, together with the parking stands at apron 5. They could have used the doors at ground level in the satellite for operations to planes parked at the building and those at the C-pier for the remote stands.

The offices planned at the satellite could have easily been made in the old, empty office building, integrated in the old terminal.

In front of the old terminal there should have been a corridor to the old location of the finger south (where there is going to be the LC concourse) and construct an extension of the B-pier over there. This way they could have installed two price classes for companies using BRU: the more expensive current B-pier for traditional carriers and the cheaper (and further away) extension for leisure companies and other airlines who wish to pay a lower fee and are willing to park their planes over there.

You could park about 7 widebodies at this extension.
Or would it be possible to envisage a totally new Terminal opposite the existing facilities, across the shortest runway perhaps? But that may mean some kind of light rail or metro would be needed to connect the facilities, and the development of parking and all sorts of things on that side of the airport zone.
Why make it so difficult and expensive? Just demolish the old DHL hangers, and the infrastructure of SN Technics and construct a new terminal at the site. There is plenty of room for it and they could dedicate to Star Alliance carriers. DHL building 2 will be used for terminal activities (it actually is a bit longer then the current 1995 terminal) and the rest could be used to build a concourse, all up to General Aviation. With about 600 meters it is almost as long as the +/- 620 meter long B-concourse.

I think all space at the Zaventem area of the airport should be reserved for pax operations. All 'strange' activities should be moved to other sites. Actually, in my opinion, the military airport should be moved, so the technical ops can be moved to that location, including the hanger 40 and 41 of SN technics. This way space is made available for extra parking buildings and maybe the once planned airport village.

LSG and Aviapartner catering can be moved to Brucargo as well. With the entire make over of that area they could reserve some space for it.
One sure thing, Brussels Airport is reaching design capacity, particularly at certain hours, and something needs to be done about this. I'm more skeptical when it comes to the low-cost terminal, where is it that they are planning this facility again? It may be taking on vital space, although there you need less "gates" as planes generally don't call for very long.
There is plenty of room, it will only cost a lot of money and efforts by everyone, not the least the passengers. But I think these sacrifices have to be made in order to allow the airport to grow further.

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MiStEr-T
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Re: Heavy gate shortage at BRU?

Post by MiStEr-T » 02 Oct 2008, 17:14

The hainan A330 was parked at the end of the A-pier (gated) during my last visit (7 september)

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Atlantis
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Re: Heavy gate shortage at BRU?

Post by Atlantis » 02 Oct 2008, 18:14

Devon Rex wrote:Nowadays they also use the DHL stands.

2 Saturdays in a row that I've seen BA, Sky Airlines, Turkish, Syrian, Lingus and even Brussels Airlines having a place there...
They are using that place much longer then "nowadays". Since DHL moved away a big part out of Brussels Airport, pax carriers took that place.
BrightCedars wrote:I definitely think that the initial project of extending the A-pier to the West, if I'm not mistaken, in any case to the side where there currently is nothing, will soon have to be put into concretization.
Like I said months ago, no extention of the A-Pier to the West before the train tunnel is finished. In practice: not before 2012. But you can think and plan now to start up immediately when it is possible.
BrightCedars wrote: I think a good C-pier and the 2nd wing of the A-pier would take the facility to a capacity near the 50 million mark. Which will leave room for growth, and I'm not seeing the airport being extended further than that.
With all respect but that's not possible, three reasons:

1) we are in the middle of Lon, Ams, Fra and CDG. Those are congested but they will search for solutions behind their own borders. Look at AMS: they decided to let this airport grow to 510.000 flights a year. London: a new airport at the Theems?

2) They decided to put a maximum of 16.000 nightflights at Brussels Airport. The airport asked 18.000 flights. We will see in a couple of weeks what it will be. What's next: a maximum of dayflights? No way that you can reach 50 million pax with restrictions in flights.

3) no strong homecarrier: don't expect too much of LH/SN on the European market. LH is only interested in the Africa flights of SN.


Like I said before: move away the militairy at Melsbroek. You can use this place for all the DHL activities. They will have a lot of advantages: short distance to the runway, trucking via the Haachtsesteenweg and using the new viaduct that is under construction at Brucargo with direct access to the E19 and R01.
You can use this free space for a new terminal with connection to the extention of the A-pier. SN, ET, EY, HU, LY and some American carriers can find a nice place overthere. Not confirmed, but they are thinking at this moment at such a construction.
9W will have in that way it's own pier at Brussels Airport.

You can centralize the maintenance around the current building 41 and a new one at 40.
A new low cost parking can be build in the neighbourhood of the current parkings.

b-west

Re: Heavy gate shortage at BRU?

Post by b-west » 02 Oct 2008, 18:22

Yesterday, the new system was tested, and the SN Africa birds were moved to terminal A after the pax deboarded. I spoke to someone from Brussels Airport who told me that at the arrival level of terminal B, everything went quite smooth, almost no pax who got "lost". But apparently at the departure level of the B terminal, things were less clear. So I suppose in the coming two weeks, BRU will be finetuning the signage at B departure.

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taz001
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Re: Heavy gate shortage at BRU?

Post by taz001 » 02 Oct 2008, 19:19

The reason why everything went quite smooth is simple: there were more people of BAC and B.Air to guide all pax to the 'T-Terminal' than there were pax itself! Signage is awfull, at the arrival's level in B-terminal where you have the 'Jet-Airways security checkpoint' (paid by all airlines, only to be used by 9W), there is a sign pointing towards exit with 'T-terminal' and a sign pointing out the other direction also with 'T-terminal'. This looks like it was created by amateurs... I thought we had a pretty decent airport in BRU, but when you see things like this... i can only imagine pax' reactions... Also, the 'T-terminal' only 'exists' from !am till 12am, than the fed pol performes a sweep through the 'T' and re-opens it as the Schengen (A) terminal...
On the question: 'what will happen in case of a delay or cancellation?', the answer was:'That wel will see when it comes to that.'
By the way, the lounge in the 'T-terminal' is far from finished, so C-pax on SN to Africa, coming from the USA can wait in de lounge in the B-terminal... How inconvenient is this? they will have to leave one hour in advance in order to make it on time to their flight in the T-terminal!

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Conti764
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Re: Heavy gate shortage at BRU?

Post by Conti764 » 02 Oct 2008, 19:53

Atlantis wrote: Like I said months ago, no extention of the A-Pier to the West before the train tunnel is finished. In practice: not before 2012. But you can think and plan now to start up immediately when it is possible.
You are right, but it could be build earlier then 2012... The entire Diabolo will be ready in 2012, but once they have finished constructing the part underneath the A-expansion they could start construction on the extension, don't they?

With all respect but that's not possible, three reasons:

1) we are in the middle of Lon, Ams, Fra and CDG. Those are congested but they will search for solutions behind their own borders. Look at AMS: they decided to let this airport grow to 510.000 flights a year. London: a new airport at the Theems?

2) They decided to put a maximum of 16.000 nightflights at Brussels Airport. The airport asked 18.000 flights. We will see in a couple of weeks what it will be. What's next: a maximum of dayflights? No way that you can reach 50 million pax with restrictions in flights.

3) no strong homecarrier: don't expect too much of LH/SN on the European market. LH is only interested in the Africa flights of SN.
But, on the other hand, Africa is a very big market still not fully explored. If they play it wise at SN and BRU truly becomes the African gateway for Star Alliance (and some other carriers outside the alliance as well) it could develop into an airport of about 30 million pax a year. It will never be a power hub the way CDG, FRA or LHR are, but it could play a more significant role in aviation. To add to that, I do see a lot of Dreamliners coming in the future, especially from the far east. I mean, a T7 is to big for the average BRU market, so is a 333, 380, 748 or 350, but I do see potential for a market the served by a plane the size of the 787-800.
Like I said before: move away the militairy at Melsbroek. You can use this place for all the DHL activities. They will have a lot of advantages: short distance to the runway, trucking via the Haachtsesteenweg and using the new viaduct that is under construction at Brucargo with direct access to the E19 and R01.
The entire Brucargo is about to be changed, isn't it? So there must be at least some room for the reduced DHL operations? But you are right, the military should move from BRU which has to become a fully civilian airport. Why not install a military airport at that airport where there were those wild plans to build a second national airport?
You can use this free space for a new terminal with connection to the extention of the A-pier. SN, ET, EY, HU, LY and some American carriers can find a nice place overthere. Not confirmed, but they are thinking at this moment at such a construction.
Only the terminal or a concourse reaching west as well? If they just want to use the space of DHL it seems not big enough to have a decent terminal.
9W will have in that way it's own pier at Brussels Airport.
The B-pier?

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Atlantis
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Re: Heavy gate shortage at BRU?

Post by Atlantis » 02 Oct 2008, 21:53

Conti764 wrote: The entire Brucargo is about to be changed, isn't it? So there must be at least some room for the reduced DHL operations? But you are right, the military should move from BRU which has to become a fully civilian airport. Why not install a military airport at that airport where there were those wild plans to build a second national airport?
Indeed, the whole Brucargo area is going to chance and we see it already today, huge constructions works -> and this is just the beginning.
Also the football field and tennis courts, between Virgin and Militairy, will move away and replaced by semi industrie.
Conti764 wrote:
9W will have in that way it's own pier at Brussels Airport.
The B-pier?
Indeed, the B-pier.

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BrightCedars
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Re: Heavy gate shortage at BRU?

Post by BrightCedars » 03 Oct 2008, 09:50

Is it possible to consider moving the military branch out of BRU considering it is also the main airport in use by NATO Headquarters? There must be a higher strategic reason behind having military operations at BRU.

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Conti764
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Re: Heavy gate shortage at BRU?

Post by Conti764 » 03 Oct 2008, 13:10

BrightCedars wrote:Is it possible to consider moving the military branch out of BRU considering it is also the main airport in use by NATO Headquarters? There must be a higher strategic reason behind having military operations at BRU.
The foreign heads of state, ministers, etc. etc. could still use BRU for arrivals via General Aviation. The military branch (esp. the Belgian Air Force) can easily move to Beachevain, which is not so far away from Brussels. The military operations at BRU simply take too much space away from the civilian operations. On special occasions (the visit of the US president f.e.) BRU can still be used.

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Atlantis
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Re: Heavy gate shortage at BRU?

Post by Atlantis » 03 Oct 2008, 18:19

BrightCedars wrote:Is it possible to consider moving the military branch out of BRU considering it is also the main airport in use by NATO Headquarters? There must be a higher strategic reason behind having military operations at BRU.
Of course it can be consider because Melsbroek has not longer a function within the operations of Brussels Airport. But I don't think that the minsters have the "balls" to take that decision.

But a militairy airport on a civil airport is not longer of this time.

General Aviation is a great place to handle all diplomatic flights.

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Re: Heavy gate shortage at BRU?

Post by sn26567 » 06 Oct 2008, 09:42

Atlantis wrote:But a militairy airport on a civil airport is not longer of this time.
I fully agree. Frankfurt has also dismantled its huge US military base and has thus got a large area to expand.
André
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regi
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Re: Heavy gate shortage at BRU?

Post by regi » 06 Oct 2008, 10:55

And if we send our C-130's over to Afghanistan and leave them there as we did with the Unimogs in Kurdistan - easy way to get rid off scrap - we certainly don't need Melsbroek anymore.
One positive note:
I liked the food at the kitchen of the military base during my 1 week guard of the airport. It was outstanding compared to the pig feed we got at infantry.

Personal note:
despite we live in peace and harmony under the NATO umbrella, I think it would be good to keep a kind of skeleton service available at Melsbroek. Just in case of emergencies.
And secondly: if the military keeps the responsabilty of the military part ( extremely ugly buildings, very outdated ) the taxpayer does not have to pay for the environmental clean up. Don't tell me that there is no major polution problem at Melsbroek after all those years of using trichlorethylene...

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Re: Heavy gate shortage at BRU?

Post by Lamal » 06 Oct 2008, 11:39

Don't think that Melsbroek will be transformed quickly to a new apron for civil aircraft, once the air force leaves Melsbroek. Sure, BAC would love to see the air force leaving, but not because of the space they use, but because of the slots they take up at BRU. If the 15W leaves BRU those slots come available and would attract more airliners, etc.

Now for those who want them to leave, there is hope. But you'll have to wait till the arrival of the new A400M. The hangars are to small (they even need to load a c-130 with 20000 lbs of fuel to get it in a hangar) and a few yours there has been descided to freez the investments at Melsbroek in favor of the F-16's.
The base starts to look more and more like an old sovjet base. At the staff they are looking for solutions, including a move to beauvechain (which has plenty of space after the departure of the a-jets). Wait and see.

But indeed, the food is great overthere :)
Would hate it to see them leave.

Greetz,

Lamal

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BrightCedars
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Re: Heavy gate shortage at BRU?

Post by BrightCedars » 06 Oct 2008, 11:51

Lamal wrote:Sure, BAC would love to see the air force leaving, but not because of the space they use, but because of the slots they take up at BRU.
I was under the impression that in most cases military traffic would evidently have priority over the civilian traffic. Unless for planned missions, it's not like you can always stick to a slot or wait for the next one.

Does anybody really know how this works actually?

SabenaForever
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Re: Heavy gate shortage at BRU?

Post by SabenaForever » 07 Jan 2013, 16:39

Is SN using again the B-Gates for longhaul departures? I saw today and last week some A330's leaving THE b-Gates for departure.....

Is there a shortage again at the A-pier?

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Re: Heavy gate shortage at BRU?

Post by sterling » 07 Jan 2013, 17:26

The B-Gates are used for BRU-JFK flights.

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golf1411
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Re: Heavy gate shortage at BRU?

Post by golf1411 » 07 Jan 2013, 18:20

sterling wrote:The B-Gates are used for BRU-JFK flights.
All SN longhaul flights depart from T zone, also the JFK flight.

Only if departure time is estimated after 1600LT, flight will depart from Terminal B.
Otherwise lack of gates for Schengen flights during evening rush.

;)

A330
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Re: Heavy gate shortage at BRU?

Post by A330 » 07 Jan 2013, 20:54

golf1411 wrote:Only if departure time is estimated after 1600LT, flight will depart from Terminal B.
Not very practical if they had an evening JFK flight? ;)

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Conti764
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Re: Heavy gate shortage at BRU?

Post by Conti764 » 08 Jan 2013, 08:45

SabenaForever wrote:Is SN using again the B-Gates for longhaul departures? I saw today and last week some A330's leaving THE b-Gates for departure.....

Is there a shortage again at the A-pier?
How late did you see this? If in the morning, you have probably seen the transfer of SN aircraft which dock at the B-pier upon arrival to the T-zone, where they'll be loaded again to do an outgoing flight.

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Re: Heavy gate shortage at BRU?

Post by SabenaForever » 08 Jan 2013, 09:50

Conti764 wrote:
SabenaForever wrote:Is SN using again the B-Gates for longhaul departures? I saw today and last week some A330's leaving THE b-Gates for departure.....

Is there a shortage again at the A-pier?
How late did you see this? If in the morning, you have probably seen the transfer of SN aircraft which dock at the B-pier upon arrival to the T-zone, where they'll be loaded again to do an outgoing flight.

Well It was at 11 am. And It was not a transfer because the aircraft was was taxiing to 25R!

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