New A350XWB design

bits44 · Post by **bits44** » 07 May 2007, 13:50

Another design change for the 350XWB:

http://tinyurl.com/ytu6qw

blackbox · Post by **blackbox** » 07 May 2007, 15:37

new nose looks ugly...

CX · Post by CX » 08 May 2007, 13:04

blackbox wrote:new nose looks ugly...

This is extremely very ugly..
I dont' understand the advantage of it, it doesn't say in the article... is it really 'that' good to put the nose landing gear that much up the front? Planes nowadays, even planes like MD-11 is taxiing ok...
This thing suddenly looks like some old Russian plane.

smokejumper · Post by **smokejumper** » 08 May 2007, 14:15

Aircraft news has been slow for the past 4-5 weeks; no new major orders. Perhaps the news is being saved for the Paris Air Show in June.

The Wall Street Journal is carrying the following article on the A350 in today's edition. See:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1178590 ... lenews_wsj

The above reference is a short clip from the article, but if you "google" the article, you cna read the whole thing.

Hopefully, news will pick up with new orders announced in the next month.

TexasGuy · Post by **TexasGuy** » 08 May 2007, 17:36

I agree. I think they are waiting for the Air Show to announce most of the new things and orders.

cageyjames · Post by **cageyjames** » 08 May 2007, 18:30

The word has come down on high that US will announce our 60-narrowbody and 20-widebody order at the end of May. Of course this was what was said last month and nothing happened at the end of April. I won't bother to let you know what the latest rumors are internally because you can probably guess that they are all over the place.

David747 · Post by **David747** » 09 May 2007, 00:09

Does an A380 nose means that the A350 will have similar avionics to the A380? Commonality between the A330/A340 was a selling fixture for Airbus, and I have heard that the A350 will get some of the A380 cockpit features. Another design change for the A350 makes me wonder when Airbus will have a final design ready. I have a feeling that it will not be by the Paris Air Show; more importantly, it seems that US Airways wants a penalty clause as they renegotiate the A350 deal.

smokejumper · Post by **smokejumper** » 09 May 2007, 03:12

David747 wrote:Does an A380 nose means that the A350 will have similar avionics to the A380? Commonality between the A330/A340 was a selling fixture for Airbus, and I have heard that the A350 will get some of the A380 cockpit features. Another design change for the A350 makes me wonder when Airbus will have a final design ready. I have a feeling that it will not be by the Paris Air Show; more importantly, it seems that US Airways wants a penalty clause as they renegotiate the A350 deal.

According to Gordon McConnell, A350 Chief Engineer, the A350 schedule is:

December 2006 - Official go-ahead & start of Conceptual Design
October 2008 - Preliminary Design Complete
Final Design Start - November 2008

By this schedule, Airbus will not have the final design concept available by Paris and will need to be selling promises.

achace · Post by **achace** » 09 May 2007, 03:18

The only promises Airbus have difficulty with are deliveries.

They have been pretty accurate with technical "promises" on all their designs.

Cheers
Achace

cageyjames · Post by **cageyjames** » 09 May 2007, 06:34

David747 wrote:Does an A380 nose means that the A350 will have similar avionics to the A380? Commonality between the A330/A340 was a selling fixture for Airbus.

As far as I've known, Airbus has said it would have commonality with the A380. I don't recall A330/A340 ever being mentioned (other than you probably could move over pretty quick with training). The original A350 was tied to the A380 as well.

David747 · Post by **David747** » 09 May 2007, 09:15

smokejumper wrote:
David747 wrote:Does an A380 nose means that the A350 will have similar avionics to the A380? Commonality between the A330/A340 was a selling fixture for Airbus, and I have heard that the A350 will get some of the A380 cockpit features. Another design change for the A350 makes me wonder when Airbus will have a final design ready. I have a feeling that it will not be by the Paris Air Show; more importantly, it seems that US Airways wants a penalty clause as they renegotiate the A350 deal.
According to Gordon McConnell, A350 Chief Engineer, the A350 schedule is:

December 2006 - Official go-ahead & start of Conceptual Design
October 2008 - Preliminary Design Complete
Final Design Start - November 2008

By this schedule, Airbus will not have the final design concept available by Paris and will need to be selling promises.

Goodness, this A350 has been a trail of tears for Airbus IMO. The fact that a final design will not be completed until next year just goes to show how Boeing caught them sleeping with the 787.

boomer535 · Post by **boomer535** » 09 May 2007, 18:07

I think Airbus will announce a lot of A350 orders at the Paris Airshow. They have to do something to counter the upcomming 787 rollout and first flight.

smokejumper · Post by **smokejumper** » 09 May 2007, 18:22

Airbus' situation with the design status of the A350 is not unusual. It takes about this amount of time to conceptualize, define and design a plane (followed by tooling/facility design, manufacture, assembly, roll-out and, flight-test/certification).

Its' just that Airbus started late. Remember all the time that Boeing was working on the Sonic Cruiser, the technology groundwork for the 787 was being laid. Even once they announced the 787, it has taken 5 years to get where they are now.

boomer535 · Post by **boomer535** » 09 May 2007, 19:44

I thought Airbus announced the A350XWB last year. We are talking 7 years from the announcement to EIS for the A350 then. This is longer then Boeing will take with the 787 if all goes well. Guess all the design work on the Sonic Cruiser really did payoff. I think Boeing also has a big headstart on the narrowbody 737 replacement (Y1). There has been a lot of talk on if Boeing will go with the 777 replacement (Y3) next instead of Y1. The next 5 years should be interesting.

cageyjames · Post by **cageyjames** » 09 May 2007, 20:16

To be fair to Airbus, Boeing didn't have the A380 issues to worry about at that time. They could focus on the 787.

fokker_f27 · Post by **fokker_f27** » 09 May 2007, 22:06

CX wrote:
blackbox wrote:new nose looks ugly...
This is extremely very ugly..
I dont' understand the advantage of it, it doesn't say in the article... is it really 'that' good to put the nose landing gear that much up the front? Planes nowadays, even planes like MD-11 is taxiing ok...
This thing suddenly looks like some old Russian plane.

I agree. In fact, the old nose seemed a little more streamlined to me too.

DFW · Post by **DFW** » 11 May 2007, 05:26

I wouldn't title this posting as a "new design" of the A350. It's more like a design iteration. Airbus is finally settling down and hopefully moving forward rather than in circles at this point.

The 777 used the same avionics bay as the 767, to save on cost and design time. That makes it look funny I think. Not a clean slope from barrel to nose, but an abrupt transition.

RC20 · Post by **RC20** » 11 May 2007, 05:26

achace wrote:The only promises Airbus have difficulty with are deliveries.

They have been pretty accurate with technical "promises" on all their designs.

Cheers
Achace

That one gave me a double take. As I recall, they said the A340 would be delivered at one weight, and it showed up with Singapore at (6 tons?) overweight.

They claimed the A330+ (A350 rev 1.0 if you will) would beat the 787 (we are now on Rev 3-6 depending on how you count it all up).

The A380 delivery delay was a technical issue.

Other technical mistakes seem to be that no one can economically delivery an all composite commercial airliner, the hull was unsafe, electrical systems are not the way to go (all composites are not the way to go-amended by unless Airbus does it).

Pesky little issue of the A380 being severely overweight, and still (6 tons again?).

Anyone remember GLARE? Material of the future. Has anyone heard word one about using GLARE on the A350?

Or, the reason we are using composite panels is so if one is damaged we can replace one. Phew, now that’s a technical lie if there ever was one.

Achieving production is a technical issue.

I would say Airbus has both technical and credibility issues from top to bottom. You can argue that they are politically caused, but I will also argue that those same politics, were also the reason they were in the position they got to in the first place. Airbus has its environment to work in as does Boeing. Each has benefits, as well as drawbacks. A well run company understands that, and deals with it.

RC20 · Post by **RC20** » 11 May 2007, 05:43

A350 Tidbits

Apparently they are undecided if the nose will be all composite or not.

Alcoa is working on an Alu-Lith metal for structures as well as skins. They say it can be used in place of titanium. There is a good reason for Airbus to delay the design freeze 2 years. That might allow them to deal with the corrosion issue the Al airframe would present (it also present Boeing with weight and money saving opportunities).

One article says they will stick with 9 seats, another (av Week) says they are going to offer 10 seats. Airbus denied that, but if you can squeeze in 10, are you going to tell a customer you won't sell them one if they do?

Rear has been re-designed to squeeze in 4 more seats than A340 (less taper).

The composite skin will let them have exactly the thickness they need in any given area (call it justification for what you have to use).

Boeing had to have considered that, and rejected it.

I know their engineers are doing the best with what’s handed to them.
They are short of resources (human and technical).

In this case they do not have the ability to spin fuselages, so they are dong the best they can with the technical tools they have.

Still working with GE on engines (not sure what they can offer GE to cut their exclusive throat, but……)

Bottom line though is how many will commit to something that they don't even have a final design for?, let alone against a more advanced design that’s been flying for 5 years when your first one does?

smokejumper · Post by **smokejumper** » 11 May 2007, 14:15

RC-20 is on the mark.

Airbus has very talented engineers and production people and (up until now) money was not an issue. They still have the talent, but the financial and depth of talent is lacking.

Today, Airbus' largest issue is one of time. The company developed a very competitive and wide-range aricraft family in the 1990's. Then .... they overstepped and bit off a chunk that has been tough to chew and even more difficult to swallow (A380). Make no mistake, the A380 is a technological achievement, but the production issues and the potential market size has overshadowed the accomplishment. As I've repeatedly said, the maket for 555 (or 520, whatever the current claim is) is limited. There are only so many city-pairs tht can support such a plane and still give reasonable flight frequency.

The A380 has consumed massive amounts of design talent and money that should have been applied to new products. This is evident in the fact that Airbus is only now addressing the B777/787 competition, and, even then will have a single aircraft that misses the "sweet spot" of the 225-260 seat long range market that Boeing has captured.

The A350 will be a formidable competitor to today's 777 (but 18 years later than the 777's entry date of 1995). Boeing has constantly improved the 777 and can be expected to continue to do so. When the A350 arrives on the scene, the 777 will certainly have been developed further and most probably still be competitive.

The market for the 787 (-3 and -8) will remain unchallenged by
Airbus. The 787 (-9 and -10) promises to be lighter and more efficient than the A350 (800 and 900) due to the expected lighter weight of the composite construction (but this remains to be proven - we'll just have to wait unitl 2013).

In summary, Airbus problem was not in technical abilities, but in management. They severely misread the market and continued down the yellow brick road in search of the wizzard. When they arrived at the end, they did not find the pot of gold and are now scrambling to make the best of the prediciment they now find themselves.