Troubles at Brussels Airlines ? Part II

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airazurxtror
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Post by airazurxtror »

datpilot wrote: and you passengers: thank you for flying with us but don't for a second think that we don't know that most of you anly fly with us because we're cheaper and more connected to brussels than all the rest.
Well, yes, sure, that goes without saying : the passengers fly Brussels Airlines only if and when Brussels Airlines is cheaper and/or more convenient.
For what else should they select it ? Just for the love of it ?
And you should also know that if Brussels Airlines happens to disappear, the passengers won't stay home mourning, but will go on another airline without a second thought. Such is life ...

SN30952
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Post by SN30952 »

sn26567 wrote:In a normal company, when somebody decides to leave for whatever reason, the company writes a nice letter to recommend him to his future employer...
This kind of behaviour in football, known in the Netherlands as "natrappen*', is sanctioned with a red card.
What a shame.

The man did not need a letter, he had the prospect of a job.
The quality of HRM seems in some cases below acceptable level.
In quality control terms this will have a rather heavy PONC.
brusselsairlinesfan wrote:A strike @ brussels airlines would be sooooo risky for the new belgian carrier...
Maybe not as risky as management mistakes?
*Babelfish translates this as "donner un coup de pied par derriure" and in English "to kick while he is down".

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tolipanebas
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Post by tolipanebas »

sn26567 wrote:
datpilot wrote:Sorry if we're not impressed by the CEO saying he's sorry. That pilot's career is ruined for the near future.
That is the real issue. An apology would be void if management does not provide new career opportunities for that particular pilot.

But is this worth starting a strike? I think there are other ways to get one's voice heard.
Oh, don't worry.

As proposed by the social reconsiliator, brussels airlines is currently holding an official referendum -overseen by lawyers- amongst its pilots on the proposed new CLA which is the only missing link to make it possible to integrate ex-VEX and DAT into one new airline...

With the atmosphere being what it is right now, the unions have decided to reverse on their initial position of not providing any voting advice, and are calling upon their members to vote NO, so it is almost a given brussels airlines will have no choice but to scrap their plans to integrate the 2 airlines into one airline and will have to remain stuck with 2 different AOC's and all the operational problems that come with that....
(the 30 min turn around rule is just one exemple of it...

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blackhawk
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Post by blackhawk »


fcw
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Post by fcw »

tolipanebas wrote:With the atmosphere being what it is right now, the unions have decided to reverse on their initial position of not providing any voting advice, and are calling upon their members to vote NO, so it is almost a given brussels airlines will have no choice but to scrap their plans to integrate the 2 airlines into one airline and will have to remain stuck with 2 different AOC's and all the operational problems that come with that...
The unions are ready to accept any reasonable offer, BruAir wants to sqeeze the last drop out of the workforce. The guys who are telling the workforce there simply is no more money available are driving company Porshes or BMW's, perhaps a wrong signal...

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dodo.the.eagle
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Post by dodo.the.eagle »

Ok, the managment and office people got their wages increased (or a bigger car), airbus sector seems bit neutralised and Virgin got a quite good deal, and the only ones loosing is again the avro sector,or isn't that obvious ????!!!
So it seems to me that it's only very natural that these people are defending their already heavy lowered working conditions (since 2001) for another defeat.

And if striking is the only sign there's left, so be it, decent managers should be able to dedect those very last signs long before ...

And before Dodo quits, it seems to me LX. ... that you, as a passenger, you're probably the most concerned belgian ever seen in aviation, good to see there are still people like you, (G.Sc. ?..)

FlightMate
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Post by FlightMate »

The pilots are now proposed to work at least 200h more per month to get the same amount of money, isn't it nice?

Would you vote YES to such a proposal?

Edit: 200h per year of course :)
Last edited by FlightMate on 21 Apr 2007, 11:45, edited 1 time in total.

LX-LGX
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Post by LX-LGX »

it's really unbelievable how some are trying to avoid the very first rule of any business, including aviation: respect the client (thus passenger). A strike is a violation of that rule, no matter what happened.

if all those allegations about Bru-Air's working conditions are true, then most of the pilots here should a) leave that company at once, or b) go to a doctor immediately, as they are mentally unable to fly. If management indeed makes life a hell for you, you should not enter the cockpit.

Dodo, I've lost 7.100 euro with Sabena's bankruptcy. After your October 2001 strike, I received a nice MCO - but there was no possibility to pay me out, it had to be deducted from the next invoice. But then, you were not flying anymore, and also the liquidator didn't accept your MCO. I will not loose again because you're going to use the "last option".

The webmaster and some site administrators who know me, may edit this post: I am not / was not a Brussels Airlines staff.

Short term damage if you go on strike: millions of damage. Long term damage: we, the public, the passengers, will regard you as Sabena-2. The problem will then become yours however, as we'll find somebody else to fly us around.

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Established02
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Post by Established02 »

FlightMate wrote:The pilots are now proposed to work at least 200h more per month to get the same amount of money.
From this sentence I understand that pilots used to fly X hours per month and now they have to fly X + 200 hours per month.

Let's suppose X = 38 hours per week x 4 weeks in a month = 152 hours per month => 152 + 200 = 352 hours per month => divided over 20 working days per month = 17,6 hours per day

Is this correct?

foxtrot_lima_yankee
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Post by foxtrot_lima_yankee »

Read-back correct. I though suppose it is TWO ZERO hours more instead of 200...

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tolipanebas
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Post by tolipanebas »

foxtrot_lima_yankee wrote: I suppose it is TWO ZERO hours more instead of 200...
yep, indeed there definitely is a zero too much there...

Obviously flying staff doesn't have a contract based on 38 or whatever hours in a working week, as you can not just stop a flight half way down its route, saying: "okay, that's the 38th hour finished for me this week, now let's get off the plane here", but the idea is that on a MONTHLY basis, 75 to 80 hours are planned, which combined with the preflight preparations, transit ground time in between the flights and post flight document filing combined, easily translate in 170 to 180 hours, which then can be compared roughly to a 42 to 45 hours working week, which in itself is already well above a full time employment....

And now the official proposal is to increase our productivity by more than 15% by all possible means: fly earlier, fly longer, fly later, have shorter turn arounds, take more positioning flights in your own free time etc etc! Oh, and obviously all of that for a ZERO percent wage increase, since the company says it doesn't have a money left, after spending a budget of well over 2 milion euro annually on aligning the working conditions of all those working for SN/VEX on the ground and at the offices.... :twisted:

I'd like to to hear how many more extra FREE hours a day all the office people at SN are doing for the new company? Or if their breaks have been cut, they need to work longer days and have lost some holidays on top too??? :roll:

Just think about it for a second: SN changes strategy, decides to fly as a low cost as from 6 o' clock in the morning till midnight, have shorter turn around times, start onboard food and drink sales, etc.. etc... ALL of which have to be coped with on a daily basis primarilly by those FLYING, yet those are precisely the ONLY ones which are not proposed an improvement to their remuneration system? Seems something is not right here....

FlightMate
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Post by FlightMate »

My mistake... 200h per year of course

An average pilot will lose from 200 to 400€ a month with the merge, so Management proposed to increase the perdiems with 1€ / hour

An average pilot who was flying 60h a month will have to fly at least 75h to get the same amount

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tolipanebas
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Post by tolipanebas »

FlightMate wrote:My mistake... 200h per year of course

An average pilot will lose from 200 to 400€ a month with the merge, so Management proposed to increase the perdiems with 1€ / hour

An average pilot who was flying 60h a month will have to fly at least 75h to get the same amount
Well NOT even!

We will indeed loose about 200 to 400 euro a month because we will loose some extra legal remunerations linked to our stays in outstation which have been cut short (the main reason is to save on hotel accomodation, which is a good thing to do really, but NOT without compensating US for the loss of income because of it)

The proposal is to increase our hourly pay by 1 euro and they say we will have to fly around 75 hrs a month (yep, only our FLYING time will be taken into account, even though there is MUCH more in short haul than just flying like I have said above and our WORKING hours are more than DOUBLE the FLYING hours), so a quick calculation still shows that the ballance is NEGATIVE.

They should UP the proposal to at least 2 euro an hour AND pay us for WORKING hours, not FLYING hours, and then MAYBE, just MAYBE we won't be LOOSING money... yet still be working 15% harder!

FlightMate
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Post by FlightMate »

Too much math for me :p

And we may add the extra gaz we will need to go to the airport 4 or 5 times extra

airazurxtror
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Post by airazurxtror »

Thus, as already posted by blackhawk, the unions at Brussels Airlines have yesterday given notice of a possible strike (dépôt d'un préavis de grève) from May 1st, and for an undetermined lenght of time (meaning a strike might be launched at any time after april 30).
A meeting with the direction thursday night had no result.
Somebody said Sabena2 ?

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Omikros
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Post by Omikros »

so this is the result...
More strikes? :(

http://www.standaard.be/Artikel/Detail. ... s+airlines

Qwerty
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Post by Qwerty »

Omikros wrote:so this is the result...
More strikes? :(

http://www.standaard.be/Artikel/Detail. ... s+airlines
I can only tell that as a (future) passenger I am very unpleasant with it...

foxtrot_lima_yankee
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Post by foxtrot_lima_yankee »

Strikes?
I m flying July 23rd, don t strike then please!!

FlightMate
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Post by FlightMate »

don't worry, man!
If it happens, it would be way sooner than july

foxtrot_lima_yankee
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Post by foxtrot_lima_yankee »

They are right to have a strike.
There are many more ways to improve, than to cut personnel costs!!
Perhaps they should consider dropping some unimportant routes and consider selling a few old planes in order to have fresh capital and start efficient operations on the key routes.
For instance: what is a 5 daily service to Geneva good for?
That s bullshit!!
Operate 2 daily fully booked flights at decent prices instead of 5 half-full flights at give-away rates!!

What is a daily flight to Cagliari good for?
Bullshit, do that in the summer, not in the winter!!
The same for Palermo.

The keyword for a low-cost carrier is: efficiency, efficiency, efficiency.
A strike is not efficient!!!
On one day of strikings you loose more capital than you can economise in 3 years of cut-backed salaries.

Look for investors.

Instead of hiring absent-minded human ressources staff, hire some cargo operations specialist and make sure those A330's always fly full.

Make-up some deals and buy kerosene at better prices!!

The marketing is very good now!! I see posters everywhere!!
CONGRATULATIONS TO THE MARKETING TEAM!!
Maybe some easy marketing (leaflets,...) at the destinations might increase your popularity!!

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