Troubles at Brussels Airlines ?

Join this forum to discuss the latest news that happened in the world of commercial aviation.

Moderator: Latest news team

Locked
Voice of Reason
Posts: 10
Joined: 23 Mar 2007, 13:24

Post by Voice of Reason »

Right now we’re scheduled for a 45 minute turn around at outstations. In that time we have to deplane pax, re-fuel, clean, run a complete security scan of the cabin, eat and draw breath before boarding the next load of pax. That’s a busy 45 minutes. In Berlin we are scheduled for a 25 minute turn around which we usually make. To do that turn around something’s got to give. In Berlin we have round-trip fuel so no need to refuel. Most of the time we have only 45 to 50 business type passengers who don’t make a mess. We can usually get away without cleaning for this reason. BRU – SXF is usually under an hour so we don’t need to eat and go without a break. That is how we do a 25 minute turn around. We always complete a full safety and security inspection of the aircraft before letting passengers on the aircraft. A Berlin flight was ramp checked by the German CAA recently. The inspector reported that he could not believe that all the required items had been checked in time to board on schedule although he had just witnessed it. At other destinations we will not be able to go without refuelling or cleaning and we will need to eat and draw breath. If we were to do 30 minute turn arounds at all destinations then I am very afraid that what will be dropped is the security inspection.

Some have suggested that the unions have called a wildcat strike without negotiation. First of all this is not a strike. We shall continue to fulfil our commitment to our passengers; we’ll keep you safe. We will get you from A to B in safety which is still Our number one priority if not that of management. Secondly, I can tell you that our unions and professional associations have been negotiating with management now for months. A short time ago the management pulled out of negotiations and imposed the new scheduling scheme. How did they think that the crews would react?

I also notice that a lot of contributors here put the blame for the current situation firmly at the door of the crew members. No one talks about the management, why? Who are the management? Let’s take a look:

At the top we have the CEO. His last task was to run Proximus, which let’s face it is more of a government ministry than a company.

Next down we have the COO. He is the son of an old friend of Étienne Davignon’s. The COO’s father is a senior manager in Lufthansa by-the-way. That might come in useful when it comes time to sell the company.

Then we have the Director of Operations, a 4000 hour co-pilot.


There is an old saying in the aviation business: “If you think safety is expensive then try an accident.”

Patatje_
Posts: 55
Joined: 26 Oct 2006, 18:18
Location: Antwerp

Post by Patatje_ »

why dont just try if you can make your checks in this turn-around time?

If its not possible we will start making delays and brussels airlines will automaticly addapt there procedures...

this will avoid the social unrest and eventually you will get what you want...

greetz
Visit www.batechnics.com ! (Belgian Aviation Technics)

werknemer
Posts: 22
Joined: 23 Mar 2007, 13:57

Post by werknemer »

first of all, most poeple who is visiting and writing here don't know anything about SNBA

they think they know all!
but of course they are free to think what they want

but saying that all the problems of SNBA is because the crew!!!
that's too much for me!
i read every day the forum and never answered a topic but this time it's getting too far

we as crew are allways giving the best
we have allways from the start of SNBA agree with all the decissions of the management and now we are talking about are future
not about yours!
because it is very easy to be in front a pc, and write what you think or feel!

and writing that we are bad!! and all the problems are because of us!

for your info!
the 30 minutes of turn around, is not the problem!

the problem is that they introduced it without an agreement with the unions!
in our contract it's 40 min!

do you agree to work 45 hours and be paid 38?
are you the bad guys if you don't agree!

as i wrote allready before, it's very easy to write stuff, but it's not easy to write the truth, because to know the truth you must be inside and see or feel it!

not just hear it !
so please, think twice next time you "shoot" somebody!
because it's all about the future of a job!
think more about the employee and less about the bosses
Last edited by werknemer on 23 Mar 2007, 14:47, edited 1 time in total.

SN30952
Posts: 7151
Joined: 31 Jul 2003, 00:00

Post by SN30952 »

werknemer wrote:....it is very easy to be behind a pc, and write what you think or feel!
And it is sometimes not easy at all to be behind a pc, and write what you think or feel!
We understand...
btw, try to sit in front of your PC! :lol:

Patatje_
Posts: 55
Joined: 26 Oct 2006, 18:18
Location: Antwerp

Post by Patatje_ »

werknemer wrote: the problem is that they introduced it without an agreement with the unions!
in our contract it's 40 min!
do you mean that there is a line in your contract that the 'minimum' turn around time is 40min?

on the other side i can agree with the cabin crew, BUT, brussels airlines is a 'new' company with new rules.

and you must admit, they don't pay bad and they treat there empoyers in a good way...

most of the people who never worked somewhere else are the ones complaining whole the time.

I'm 'just' a technician at ba for 8 years so i dont know anything about this???

but it's also my company, and i think it's shame that the first action you do is a strike (ok you don't harm the passengers but you harm the company!).

like someone else mentioned in this forum, this is how sabena ended...

the fact is that the people who decided this (managment)are well edjucated and smart enough to introduce this arrangement.
their objective is to make money, they make mony by pleasuring the passengers, and the passengers pay YOUR salery!

btw, most of the people in this forum (on luchtzak) do know what there talking about...

greetz
Visit www.batechnics.com ! (Belgian Aviation Technics)

Voice of Reason
Posts: 10
Joined: 23 Mar 2007, 13:24

Post by Voice of Reason »

BA Tech

The crews of SNBA and Virgin Express have between them many thousands of hours of hard earned experience. They have done literally millions of turn arounds in the course of their careers. Your suggestion “
Patatje_ wrote:why dont just try if you can make your checks in this turn-around time?
” completely misses the point. Yes we could do 30 minute turn arounds but we will be un-rested, unfed and fatigued. The company is not proposing to pay for this deterioration in conditions of service and much more importantly than that these changes represent a very real degradation of safety. Remember that we have to do a safety and security inspection of the aircraft on every turn around. It will come to a choice between eating and resting or doing the security inspection. It doesn’t matter which one of those is lost it still represents a safety compromise.

The fault lies with the totally inept management.

Voice of Reason
Posts: 10
Joined: 23 Mar 2007, 13:24

Post by Voice of Reason »

Patatje_ wrote:Their objective is to make money, they make mony by pleasuring the passengers,
I wish the management would stick to making money by "pleasuring the passengers", ha ha ha. They appear to be far better qualified to "pleasure" passengers than manage an airline.
Last edited by Voice of Reason on 23 Mar 2007, 16:54, edited 1 time in total.

werknemer
Posts: 22
Joined: 23 Mar 2007, 13:57

Post by werknemer »

do you mean that there is a line in your contract that the 'minimum' turn around time is 40min?

yes there is a line!!!

brussels airlines is a 'new' company with new rules
no!
the same company with the same employees, different name, so if they want a new company, then new contracts! win win situation for both

but it's also my company, and i think it's shame that the first action you do is a strike (ok you don't harm the passengers but you harm the company!).
we dind'i call it a strike
press and management call it!
we just wanne to show the bosses that we don't agree
the crew will fly and the b flex will have everything, but we will not sell stuff in b light
and you as employee should know better what's all about the "strike"

most of the people who never worked somewhere else are the ones complaining whole the time.
all the crew worked for different companies
and all new changes are in profit of the management, we agreed all the changes but now we have to show them we aren't, because we allready give enough and you as technician should know it


the fact is that the people who decided this (managment)are well edjucated and smart enough to introduce this arrangement.
their objective is to make money, they make mony by pleasuring the passengers, and the passengers pay YOUR salery!

sure they do!
but are they also taking care of employees?
no!
just profit and profit!
you also should know that are management is mostly the same as the one of sabena!
and who left the company with millions?
i?
no
yes they pay our salary, is that a reason to do all they want and allways accept everything?

you know the poeple have lost the respect
and without respect there is no future


and the last thing,
the crew is very SNBA minded, we would do anything for SNBA and our pax, but not at cost of our future!

website-info
Posts: 754
Joined: 26 Sep 2003, 00:00

Post by website-info »

Voice of Reason wrote:BA Tech

Yes we could do 30 minute turn arounds but we will be un-rested, unfed and fatigued. The company is not proposing to pay for this deterioration in conditions of service and much more importantly than that these changes represent a very real degradation of safety.
The fault lies with the totally inept management.
does this mean that if they pay you wont be un-rested, unfed and fatigued. Maybe you'll use the extra Euros to prop open you weary eyelids.......

T

Dude320
Posts: 351
Joined: 25 Feb 2004, 00:00

Post by Dude320 »


Voice of Reason
Posts: 10
Joined: 23 Mar 2007, 13:24

Post by Voice of Reason »

website-info, there are two points there, not either/or:

1. More work/stress for the crew ie. A deterioration of conditions of service without monetary compensation AND (more importantly as clearly stated before)
2. Reduced rest / increased stress on crew members which directly equates to a reduction in performance which compromises safety.

Patatje_
Posts: 55
Joined: 26 Oct 2006, 18:18
Location: Antwerp

Post by Patatje_ »

website-info wrote:
Voice of Reason wrote:BA Tech

Yes we could do 30 minute turn arounds but we will be un-rested, unfed and fatigued. The company is not proposing to pay for this deterioration in conditions of service and much more importantly than that these changes represent a very real degradation of safety.
The fault lies with the totally inept management.
does this mean that if they pay you wont be un-rested, unfed and fatigued. Maybe you'll use the extra Euros to prop open you weary eyelids.......

T

In constuction, maintenance, cleaning, etc people work 38 hrs (or so) per week, but they WORK there houres...
cabin crew rests while the aircraft is taking off, landing, turbulence...
those flight phases are 10 to 15 min (sometimes more...)
With other jobs you simply don't have this oppertunity.

what is the difference between 40 min hard work or 30 min a little harder working?

you don't hear me say that the cabin crew isn't working hard or that they dont have a tuff life, but the fact is that they get payed well, have lots of advantages such as tax free stuff, the best hotels for overnight, a sometimes a lot of free time between flights...

some people just don't know what a great job they have!
the pilots of the old sabena thought the same way...
Visit www.batechnics.com ! (Belgian Aviation Technics)

werknemer
Posts: 22
Joined: 23 Mar 2007, 13:57

Post by werknemer »

Dear Patatje,

you don't get it!

next time before you write something about poeple,

go to the coffee room in your building and talk with crews, i am sure you will know what's all about it!

as i wrote before, it's all about respect!!!!

it's hard for me that i have to read those comments from a collegue

are you a staff member?
or one of the undereffective techniciens, that have to do extra hours?

SN30952
Posts: 7151
Joined: 31 Jul 2003, 00:00

Post by SN30952 »

werknemer wrote:the problem is that they introduced it without an agreement with the unions!
in our contract it's 40 min!
The tactic of the 'fait accompli*'

There is a book: 'The Fait Accompli and 118 Other Tactics Managers Must Know'.**
Unions should also read these kind of books.
This book includes case studies of tactical problems and how they were handled or mishandled.

*something that has happened or that is made to happen and is unlikely to be reversed
** Frontal attack, divide and conquer, the fait accompli, and 118 other tactics managers must know. By:, Richard Hobart Buskirk (ISBN: 0471506621) Buskirk, Richard H.

Voice of Reason
Posts: 10
Joined: 23 Mar 2007, 13:24

Post by Voice of Reason »

I’m sorry but that’s absolute nonsense. Just because the crew is sat down does not mean that they are resting. Taxi, take off and landing are critical phases of flight and it is at these times when cabin crew must be at their most alert. They must be constantly scanning the cabin for passengers doing stupid things (very common), abnormalities in the operation and function of the aircraft. They are poised to affect an immediate evacuation of the entire aircraft in 90 seconds at a moments notice using just half the exits. It would be very dangerous if crew actually were resting at these times, they would be less alert and far less effective in the mercifully rare instances where immediate action is required. This is my point in fact; if you would imagine a crew on their third day of duty and third sector of the day. They may have and probably did have disturbed nights sleep the previous two nights in substandard hotels (the days of good hotels are in the distant past). Imagine further if you will that during the takeoff role an engine disintegrates puncturing the fuselage wall and fuel tanks spreading fire and toxic fumes throughout the cabin in seconds. The cabin crew will have to assess the situation almost immediately and continue to monitor it as it changes. It would be very easy to open the wrong exit and destroy the aircraft before passenger 1 gets out.

Suggesting that the cabin crew are resting because they are sat down is the same as saying that truck drivers never work because they have a driver’s seat or managers never work because they just sit behind their desks. Actually that one might be quite close to the truth.

Being a Flight Attendant does involve a lot of physical work most of which is involved in the service element of the task. That is NOT why they are there however. As I heard one purser explain once; “the crew is there to save your ass, not kiss it.”

I submit again, there are two problems here:

1. A degradation of the conditions of service without monetary compensation, how many here would willingly accept that?
2. Degradation of safety standards due to the reduced allowances for physiological needs of the crew ie. Time for rest, food and water.

BA Tech, you say that cabin staff are well paid. Obviously this is a relative term but what would you consider as well paid? Are you well paid when you can feed yourself and put a roof over your head? I would consider this the minimum for any employee whatever their job. Would it surprise you to know that most cabin attendants work more than one job? They need to do this to make ends meet. Of course cabin attendants can vote with their feet and go elsewhere, many will, many have. This does not solve the problem.

I am not surprised that some here do not understand the minutiae of another’s profession. It is part of the job of the manager to understand these things however. To underestimate the importance of the physiological needs of your colleagues, the importance of their contribution to the operation and the fact that they are the front line of contact between the company and the customers is stupid, just stupid! And that is the real problem, stupid management.

User avatar
Avro
Posts: 8865
Joined: 28 Apr 2003, 00:00
Location: Belgium

Post by Avro »

Come on guys and girls, be a little bit more mature in this discussion !! please !!

Is it really necessary to shoot in each others legs ?
Try to discuss the pros and cons in a constructive way.. Who knows you'll maybe find a possible solution...

As from my part, I don't have enough info to take part in this discussion as I'm an extern. However, it seems very chlidish to be picky like that for only a 10 minute reduction of turn around ???

SN has adapted its business model which means that less catering will be needed for the cabin etc... Why shouldn't it be possible to do everything in 30 minutes ?

What people need to realize is that SN needs to adapt and allign its business model to other competing companies. Otherwise it will dissapear entirely in the near future.. Keep that in mind on sunday when actions will be taken against the people boarding the brussels airlines planes. If their first impression is bad, the probability is high that they won't come back....

Just my 2 cents

Chris

FlightMate
Posts: 394
Joined: 15 Mar 2007, 14:39

Post by FlightMate »

euroflyer wrote: I can only tell you I for my travel plans have just rebooked my flight next Tuesday Berlin-Brussels to be with LH now instead of b-a, I cannot afford the risk of any delay
euroflyer
With 30 minutes rotation, you will be more entitled to get delays, dude!

Today: slot of 15 minutes on the first flight, Runway 02 in Brussel: even with 40 minutes turn around: impossible to catch the delay: result: 30 minutes late at the end of the day (3 flights) - lot of passengers missed their connection.
With a turn around of 30 minutes, this would mean 50 minutes delay at the end of the day...

Fiero

Post by Fiero »

werknemer wrote: you don't get it!
next time before you write something about poeple,
go to the coffee room in your building and talk with crews, i am sure you will know what's all about it!

as i wrote before, it's all about respect!!!!

it's hard for me that i have to read those comments from a collegue

are you a staff member?
or one of the undereffective techniciens, that have to do extra hours?
As a member of luchtzak and collegue of our nice company i've been reading this topic from the start. But at a certain point this topic started running out of hand.
First of all I do find the actions taken by the crew somewhat premature but justified.
Why not offer b light also free drinks and food? Would be a nice punishment for the company. And a good thing for the pax.
Concerning the conversation with the crew i did notice that crew isn't very fond of having a talk with undereffective technicians. Hence i hope that you understand that not everybody is informed in the best possible way. And please clarify your term undereffective technicians?
So i can remain at peace and keep in mind that everybody within our company shares the same amount of respect for eachother.

Best regards.

Voice of Reason
Posts: 10
Joined: 23 Mar 2007, 13:24

Post by Voice of Reason »

Hello Chris,

It may be difficult to explain in simpler terms than I have already used but I am confident that if you re-read my post you’ll find the case clearly stated.
Avro wrote:As from my part, I don't have enough info to take part in this discussion as I'm an extern. However, it seems very chlidish to be picky like that for only a 10 minute reduction of turn around ???

There are two sides to this discussion and therefore surely two sides who could be accused of being “picky” over those ten minutes. As you know I have stated that those ten minutes represent degradation of conditions of service for cabin crew and, more importantly, a degradation of safety standards for the whole operation. In the interest of a constructive discussion it would be interesting to learn what those ten minutes represent to the management and how this can be reconciled with everyone’s number one concern, safety.

User avatar
Avro
Posts: 8865
Joined: 28 Apr 2003, 00:00
Location: Belgium

Post by Avro »

Dear werknemer,
werknemer wrote: do you agree to work 45 hours and be paid 38?
I don't see the point of this statement ??

Could you please answer me the two following questions:

:arrow: How many hours do cabin crew work on average basis per week ?

:arrow: By how many hours is the workload increased with the new turn around time ?

Chris

Locked