Troubles at Brussels Airlines ?

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Bruspotter
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Post by Bruspotter »

Hello

Avro wrote:
Now my question to you Yannick:

Do you really think that flying a 100 seater Avro (with 30 pax being B-flex) will be more difficult to handle than a B737 with 180 seats ? You don't need a lot of catering trolleys for 30 free sandwiches, do you ? Wink

No indeed , an Avro isn't a that big job to handle (although you should not underestimate this) , certainly compared to a B737-800 , but what I mean are the A319's and B737's of the fleet. Besides that it goes about the kind of service they can offer in a turnaround time of 25-30 minutes. They need to be able to ensure a certain comfort and service on the flights and they need to be able to do this in a turnaround time of 30min. I have no doubt that they will succeed but it will be difficult in the beginning and they will have some small problems too.


Best regards: Yannick ;)

Coppelia
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Post by Coppelia »

Hello everybody,

Most of 30' times turnaround are outstation, which means, no wasting time in catering load. All my BRU turnarounds are between 55' and 1h40.

The thing will be to have all the groundstaff jobs made on time (check in, cleaning, boarding) at outstations.

How many times did we arrive 20' in advance at FCO to leave there with 40' delay...

SN30952
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Post by SN30952 »

Bruspotter wrote:No indeed , an Avro isn't a that big job to handle (although you should not underestimate this) , certainly compared to a B737-800 , but what I mean are the A319's and B737's of the fleet...
Best regards: Yannick ;)
Yes and line maintenance on a new fleet is easier than on an old fleet.
eg AirAsia with its quite recent aircraft has a good punctuality record.
Bruspotter wrote:I also find it pity of the bad start for Brussels Airlines.
Isn't that clearly a management problem? And that cannot be solved (by trying) to ignore that. Wonder who will take responsibility about the mishap.
Bruspotter wrote:How many times did we arrive 20' in advance at FCO to leave there with 40' delay...
Do you believe Flightstats? eg
Flight: (SN) Brussels Airlines 3177
Historical Performance
Ontime: 88%
Ave Delay: 25 minutes

But the out of the hat trick is of course to change the flight numbers and wipe out all comparisons with the past. Is the hidden message: Ignore the past.
Allow us to come back to that punctuality thing in 4 weeks?

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sn26567
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Post by sn26567 »

Established02 wrote:
TWA wrote:hi werknemer, just to let you know that your English really sucks.
Hello TWA, this remark is a bit rough and may not really help the conversation, does it?
You may not have to agree with werknemer's viewpoint, but I believe he/she is very sincere at least.
Therefore please don't be too much distracted by some grammar and spelling issues. Regards.
Thank you Established02. I could not have said better. Everyone is welcome in this forum, and we really appreciate the efforts to write in English from those for whom it is not the mother tongue.
André
ex Sabena #26567

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sn26567
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Post by sn26567 »

What I do like with the new schedules (apart from the new uniforms) is the increased flexibility offered by the wider fleet resulting from the combination of the SNBA and VEX fleets. Former VEX destinations are served with an Avro when traffic is light (e.g. Berlin Schönefeld), former SN destination are served with a 737 when needed(e.g.Morocco is served with a B737 instead of an A319), etc.

That will certainly be the source of savings that could be useful for thye renewal of the ageing fleets later...
André
ex Sabena #26567

Coppelia
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Post by Coppelia »

Bruspotter wrote:
How many times did we arrive 20' in advance at FCO to leave there with 40' delay...

Do you believe Flightstats? eg
Flight: (SN) Brussels Airlines 3177
Historical Performance
Ontime: 88%
Ave Delay: 25 minutes

SN30952, as an ex-VEX CCM I can tell you that groundstaff at Rome are really not the best in performances, and that it happened quite a lot that we arrived there in advance to leave with delay. I have quite debts about our on time performances with 30' turnaround if it goes on like that.[/quote]
Tame birds have only longings. Wild birds fly

airbusflyer320
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Post by airbusflyer320 »

Now the avro pilots are complaining to.
the vex pilots they are flying almost the same destinations as them but they are getting more paid for that because the managment af BA put them on the same payscale of the airbus 330/319 pilots .
So the vex pilots are better of in Ba than the avro pilots.
And they had many other complaints to about new seniority list .
Is this normal??
Result is their will be many pilots leaving brussels airlines.

Cicero
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Post by Cicero »

Do you think this is normal?

SN30952
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Post by SN30952 »

Coppelia wrote:SN30952, as an ex-VEX CCM I can tell you that groundstaff at Rome are really not the best in performances, .... I have quite debts about our on time performances with 30' turnaround if it goes on like that.
Roman ground staff performances are no historical master pieces, indeed dear Coppelia. They weren't in the past, anyway.
And I follow you in your doubts about future performances @FCO. Looks like a mission impossible, although their scores are not the worst....

Just for the fun let's compare the performances at different airports for yesterday:

Fiumicino Ontime 80%
Linate Ontime 83%
Zaventem Ontime 88% (the advantages of being parochial, even on Sundays)
Swiss precison on Kloten Ontime 72%
Look what happens when one mixes low cost or budget airlines with other traffic: Singapore Ontime 51%.

But let the Germans organise low cost in Palma Mallorca Airport Ontime is 92%
See: Budget Terminal*
Read also: Singapore budget terminal operating at just over half capacity It reads also: Malaysia inaugurated its own budget terminal. Punctuality over there is also awful.
*btw this tinyurl extension, must just be a coincidence..
Last edited by SN30952 on 26 Mar 2007, 16:09, edited 1 time in total.

PNC
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Post by PNC »

more than 80% of the flights yesterday, did not get the blight service...most of them from SN crew.

Cicero
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Post by Cicero »

Logically ex-Virgin Express people don't complain, they benefit from the merge in comparison with ex-SNBA...

Coppelia
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Post by Coppelia »

Indeed, as SN crew have to sell catering from yesterday but don't get any bar commission, opposite to the VEX crew who have 8,5% commission (even if some years ago it was 18% and crew had to sign an adendum in their contract to have this % lowered, but that's another story) for quite a long time and is used to sell on board.

I just do understand their action, but today, pax who traveled yesterday were quite angry to have to pay for their catering :?
Tame birds have only longings. Wild birds fly

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Zenfookpower
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Post by Zenfookpower »

It seems this discussion has continued in this thread
viewtopic,p,173672.html#173672
I don't know why it is not in English...!!!

SN30952
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Post by SN30952 »

Zenfookpower wrote:It seems this discussion has continued in this thread
viewtopic,p,173672.html#173672
I don't know why it is not in English...!!!
Not so, it is not the same discussion. It is about Belgian Laws and Labour Court.

LX-LGX
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Post by LX-LGX »

In the Dutch part of luchtzak.be, I've posted a reply to a court judgement from Tuesday 27th March 2007. Indeed, without hearing Brussels Airlines, a Labour Court decided in favour of the trade unions that the latest decrease from 40 to 30 minutes is against the general labour agreement. My comment:

After the bankruptcy of Sabena, a limited number of Belgian leading companies and banks have founded a new airline: they've invested 145 mio euro's, and even foreigners will probably know some of the investors: Electrabel, Tractebel, Solvay, UCB, BIAC, Fortis, BBL-ING, Dexia, KBC.

Tuesday's court order makes them furious, and will put a hold on further investments into Brussels Airlines. And investments are needed, as the Brussels Airlines fleet is aging and aging (example: the Bae's are 16 to 17 years old).

Tuesday's Labourt Court order was a unilateral request by just one party involved, without the other party even invited to court (the legal term in Dutch is "eenzijdig verzoekschrift in kortgeding"). Brussels Airlines will now appeal against that verdict, and the Appeal Labour Court will then rule that the dispute about the 10 minutes is a strategic decision regarding the company's management, operations and productivity, and thus a sole decision for the Board of Directors. There's no salary decrease with the 10 minutes cut, there's no change in foreign accommodation standards, there's no cut in allowances, ...

After Tuesday’s court action, there are 2 parties at Brussels Airlines: us and them. It's not "our company" anymore. I think management will drop the new 30 minutes rule after the new Labour Court verdict allows it, but the damage by the trade union's action has been done. Imagine that your company has invested millions into an airline, and a major part of it’s staff takes you to court because you want to become more competitive. You then ask your accountant what the return on investment is, and he/she tells you “only 0,95%” Your bookkeeper then adds that you would have earned 5 times more if you would have kept the money on your bank account.

That is what happened today: people who have invested 145 mio euro's have been insulted by the trade unions. Will they still invest for a fleet renewal? I doubt it.

A second disaster for Brussels Airlines is that six years of hard working has been extremely damaged. Virgin and SN Brussels Airlines were good brands, but check out the Belgian newspapers: last weeks actions made that letters to the editor now mention "Sabena-bis". And with “Sabena" they mean the "let's-go-on-strike" attitude at Sabena during it's last months.

Troubles at Brussels Airlines? For sure...

Darjeeling
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Post by Darjeeling »

a Labour Court has deiced "in emergency" to condemn an employer because it did not respect basic contract laws. Simply. At least if we do read the same thing. So who has commited the biggest mistake now ? :roll:

FlightMate
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Post by FlightMate »

The law is the law... that's it.

They should maybe consult some lawyers before starting with unlawfull decisions.

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sn26567
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Post by sn26567 »

SN30952 wrote:
Zenfookpower wrote:It seems this discussion has continued in this thread
viewtopic,p,173672.html#173672
I don't know why it is not in English...!!!
Not so, it is not the same discussion. It is about Belgian Laws and Labour Court.
But still about problems (new ones) at Brussels Airlines.

See this news item for more information: https://www.aviation24.be/article13952.html
André
ex Sabena #26567

fcw
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Post by fcw »

LX-LGX wrote: After the bankruptcy of Sabena, a limited number of Belgian leading companies and banks have founded a new airline: they've invested 145 mio euro's, and even foreigners will probably know some of the investors: Electrabel, Tractebel, Solvay, UCB, BIAC, Fortis, BBL-ING, Dexia, KBC.


A second disaster for Brussels Airlines is that six years of hard working has been extremely damaged. Virgin and SN Brussels Airlines were good brands, but check out the Belgian newspapers: last weeks actions made that letters to the editor now mention "Sabena-bis". And with “Sabena" they mean the "let's-go-on-strike" attitude at Sabena during it's last months.

Troubles at Brussels Airlines? For sure...
Why do you think BruAir should be above the law?
A bit off topic but: the investors got a special and very good fiscal deal six years ago. That and other internal interests made them invest.
Recent investigations proof that the old Sabena management was putting money aside for themselves and was verry generous for thesemselves. The unions suspected it, but had no proof,that caused the frustration strikes at the end of Sabena. If you explain that to people, they fully understand. Ex- Sabena employees are wanted and apreciated worlwide these days.
I suppose with Sabena bis you mean: too many managers with shiny company cars and generous salaries but with no respect for the workforce. You remeber the bonus a couple of years ago: 90% for the management, 10% for the workforce???
BruAir in trouble indeed...

airazurxtror
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Post by airazurxtror »

fcw wrote:
LX-LGX wrote: After the bankruptcy of Sabena, a limited number of Belgian leading companies and banks have founded a new airline: they've invested 145 mio euro's, and even foreigners will probably know some of the investors: Electrabel, Tractebel, Solvay, UCB, BIAC, Fortis, BBL-ING,
Why do you think BruAir should be above the law?
A bit off topic but: the investors got a special and very good fiscal deal six years ago. That and other internal interests made them invest.
Etienne Davignon and Maurice Lippens are two powerful businessmen, with good address books.
They persuaded fellow businessmen at the head of the above mentioned Belgian companies to put money into SNBA. They did it because one hand washes the other and also, it was rumoured, to please the Royal Palace, who wanted some sort of Belgian flag carrier to subsist.
From a purely business point of view, that investment was not reasonable : little or no return expected and a good probability to lose part or all of it.

When a company is on the razor's edge, as Brussels airways, the personnel is expected to make some effort. But some of them apparently prefer to follow the same pattern as Sabena.

It's Virgin Express should have been kept : excellent spirit, class - and beautiful planes !

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