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foxtrot_lima_yankee
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Joined: 04 Nov 2005, 00:00

Post by foxtrot_lima_yankee »

That s what they earn at Ryanair at least.
If you earn less than I really feel sorry for you.

werknemer
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Joined: 23 Mar 2007, 13:57

Post by werknemer »

i know

hope it wil help you to understand what is all about that disagreement with the new cao

we have to react or it will be worser in the future!
we do not have an other choise!

Johan23
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Post by Johan23 »

@Werknemer: If you add your allowances you'll be pretty close to 2000 Euros a month no? I cannot say you are paid bad...
30 Minutes is possible according to me, but do not compare Virgin with SNBA's service. There is a BIG difference in preparation.
An engineer abroad earns a lot more as well than one working in Belgium. I suggest that all of those not happy with their salary try to find a better job flying for a foreign liner, why not? If I am that unhappy somewhere I try to find a solution...

I hope management and unions get to an agreement pretty soon, cause these actions will harm the new company more than we think.

Good weekend all,
J

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euroflyer
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Post by euroflyer »

it's not about the 30 or 40 min turnaround!!!
it's about the fact that the management changed it without asking or any agreement!
in our contract is written 40 min!
of course we can do it in 30min if vex does it!
but why do we always have to accept everything coming from above!
OK, as I thought, it is not about 40 or 30, it is about the principal question of who decides what ... :roll:
I hope management and unions get to an agreement pretty soon, cause these actions will harm the new company more than we think.
You got it :cheers:
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FlightMate
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Post by FlightMate »

of course! 30 minutes is possible.

It's just unacceptable to implement new rules without speaking about it before.

I hope the guys who took such decisions (yeah, right, nice management strategy) will be laid off!

This will finally cost a lot of money to the company, and it could have been settled 3 months ago!

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Avro
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Post by Avro »

euroflyer wrote:
OK, as I thought, it is not about 40 or 30, it is about the principal question of who decides what ... :roll:
It's nice to see that after 3 pages of discussion it has finally been said that it's not the 30 minutes turn around that causes a problem !!!

b-west

Post by b-west »

Why are people always so shy in telling how much they earn... As a cop I get around 1800 a month, that's 1500 + 300 in extra's (night shift, weekends etc). For that money, I have to work in shifts, morning - afternoon - night - two days off, morning - afternoon... etc. These are shifts of 10 hours. I work in Brussels (Molenbeek more precise) and usually don't have to worry about lunch or whatever, because there's simply no time for it... Overtime is a daily experience, we are getting little or no support from our superiors, and there's always the risk that that one hold-up is gonna get out of hand... And still I go to work whistling every day, because I love my job. Ok, maybe this is comparing apples with oranges, but still...


Anyway, if I see all this fuss about 30 minutes or 40 it's understandable that I'm at least a bit surprised. I can understand that the management should've discussed this with the unions, but on the other hand,the unions shouldn't immediatly resort to actions as well. This will only hurt the company, and ultimately YOU, the staff. Though they say these actions will in no part affectthe customers, they will hurt the company's reputation and thus jeopordise its future.

As an example: I got a friend who has to leave to Tempelhof on sunday, when his company heard of the possibility of actions, they were already thinking of changing the airline. And this is a big company, who use SN quite a lot.

Don't forget, Sabena's demise had many fathers, over-active unions being one of them

foxtrot_lima_yankee
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Post by foxtrot_lima_yankee »

Thanks B-WEST for your great post, we are thankful for the services you bring to us and we have respect for the dangers you face daily.

Respect to SN Brussels Airlines crews that are, we should say it, one of the best!!!!
Though managers seem to be a bit arrogant while opting for the easiest solutions, at least you see that these crew guys-and-girls care about Brussels Airlines.
A bit off-topic but I wished you guys had a manager like mine: I work for a big group of hotels (while trying to earn flight hours for CPL) of which the managers even forget we exist though we are at the center of the business: customer service. Our manager only wishes he could pay us better, while he can t, 'cause there is a fixed salary for all employees of the group. So whenever we wish to book a hotel of the group, he makes sure we get the very best and pay the minimum.

What I want to say is you guys have a real hart.
You deserve a better treatment.
I wish you all good luck not only for tomorrow at the negociations, but for your entire career at BA!!
Make us proud!!

Ducatibiker
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Post by Ducatibiker »

As a very frequent flyer and as a customer of Brussels Airlines, I find its management to be very arrogant and unprofessional. Therefore, I fully support this type of action causing minimum disturbance – flights are not cancelled. As history showed for Sabena Swiss management, I would encourage everyone working at Brussels Airlines to question the current commercial strategies.

airazurxtror
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Post by airazurxtror »

b-west wrote:Why are people always so shy in telling how much they earn... As a cop I get around 1800 a month, that's 1500 + 300 in extra's (night shift, weekends etc). For that money, I have to work in shifts, morning - afternoon - night - two days off, morning - afternoon... etc. These are shifts of 10 hours. I work in Brussels (Molenbeek more precise)
This is a litle bit off topic, but (living in Brussels) I must say that I sncerely admire the courage of somebody who is a cop in Molenbeek ! ( and moreover for 1800 a month.)
SNBA workers pose as martyrs for 10 minutes more or less; they should know that a lot of people work harder than them, and doing a job much less easy and more dangerous or unhealthy.
Allow me to remind you of the Volkswagen Forest workers (not an easy job either ), who have agreed to work 38 hours instead of 35, for the same pay...

Kapitein
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Post by Kapitein »

Made a quick look for the rotations on 25th and 26th March.
Most of them are still 40 minutes or more.

Fiero

Post by Fiero »

airazurxtror wrote:
SNBA workers pose as martyrs for 10 minutes more or less; they should know that a lot of people work harder than them, and doing a job much less easy and more dangerous or unhealthy.
Allow me to remind you of the Volkswagen Forest workers (not an easy job either ), who have agreed to work 38 hours instead of 35, for the same pay...
Not that i feel as a victim or the most hard working employee of the company , but still i want you to know this!
Every employee has a certain amount of courses to follow each year.Human factors, Jar-ops , sim checks , first aid , etc,... each with a minimum pas rate of 75%. Which is not easy to do. Most courses are nice thick books and have to be learned in a minimum time. But still we do not victimise ourselves. Everybody is breaking sweat to please the pax , ensure a comfortable flight and assure that the A/C is in the best technical condition possible which is proven by al the awards the company already has received.
So please do specify how we would give the impression that we are not working hard. We are not standing around doing nothing with 3 people looking to the fourth person working.

oodjp
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Joined: 24 Mar 2007, 18:01

Post by oodjp »

Many of you mix 2 things here, the fact that the 30 min is used as a weapon from the unions against the management of BA because 40 min is written in the CLA and is therefore law untill it is changed by mutual agreement and the fact if 30 min turnarounds are possible or not.

The first part I will not comment on because it is an internal matter to be solved by the airline, about the 30 min I did some studies years ago on turnaround times with following results if an aircraft is parked on a jetway :
Average deboarding time : 10 min
Average boarding time : 20 min
In order to have a 30 min turnaround cleaning, catering and fueling has to be done while deboarding(cleaning) and boarding, and stairs are needed to let the cleaning on board at the back of the aircraft.(ex bru has only 2 stairs for avro)
A groundcrew has to be present for pushing back the aircraft when ready.
As you all see many external factors(company's) have an influence on the turn around time and 30 min will only work if all works like a swiss watch, being a pilot for 20 years this is rarely the case.

Many of you may thing why does it work for Ryanair, very simple
since they only fly to secondary airports they have no jetways, rarely need pushback and they always deboard and board via 2 stairways on to the aircraft, not having a seatticket has also an influence because people rush to have a good seat, this allows them to board in 30 min.

Pittsboy
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Post by Pittsboy »

Every employee has a certain amount of courses to follow each year.Human factors, Jar-ops , sim checks , first aid , etc,... each with a minimum pas rate of 75%. Which is not easy to do. Most courses are nice thick books and have to be learned in a minimum time.
You're exagerrating just a little bit, aren't you? Yes, there are courses to follow at periodic intervals. Yes, you have to study them. Yes, some are harder to pass than others.
Every now and then you have to study all the books you already studied quite a number of times before.One could say that by that time you already know them by heart.
And yes, I know, the tests are all open questions and these questions change randomly year after year...right...
By the way: you mention you have to pass a JAR-OPS exam. Does this mean that you have to learn the entire JAR-OPS syllabus?
Be a little more objective please.

Just a quick recap of the financial facts at hand (and I'm not making them up, you can download them from SNBA's website).

Year 2005:
Turnover (million): 845
Operational result (million): 4,1
that gives you: Operational margin: 0,5%

An operational margin of 0,5% isn't what I would call excellent, it's not even good.
They managed to bend this into a net profit of 14,6 million due to the sale and lease back of a large part of the Avro fleet, go figure.
By the way: compare the 2005 figures for SNBA with those of VEX, you might be surprised...

Results for 2006 are not available yet, but I'm sure the operational margin won't be much higher compared to 2005.
The companies with money invested in SN Airholding are already waiting for a return on investment quite some years now. Some are even openly questioning the sense of their investment (there was a nice feature in Trends magazine quite some time ago). Imagine what happens if they pull the plug?

Bottom line: there's practically no other way but going head to head with the other low cost airlines, thus also implementing their way of working.
And if you look at the figures, there isn't any money to spend either.

Facts contradict the large opposition with regard to the 30 minute turn around: other companies with larger aircraft manage to do it, so why not SNBA? People are always so reluctant when it comes to change. But change might be for the better as well.

Of course, I understand everyone's frustration of feeling passed by and disrespected by management. The entire discussion starts to resemble a 'divide et impera' policy. Don't be fooled is my advice.

I hope for all working at SNBA that negotiations will progress in a constructive and positive atmosphere and that a solution will present itself soon.

Pittsboy
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Post by Pittsboy »

oodjp wrote: Many of you may thing why does it work for Ryanair, very simple
since they only fly to secondary airports they have no jetways, rarely need pushback and they always deboard and board via 2 stairways on to the aircraft, not having a seatticket has also an influence because people rush to have a good seat, this allows them to board in 30 min.
I concur your arguments. However, let's talk facts:

The average FR has about 150 pax on board (counting on the 85% load factor they had in 2005)
The average SN has about 60 pax on board (based on the 63% load factor of 2005 for the entire fleet). Seen the fact that the A330's have a much higher load factor than the Avro fleet, I assume 60 pax is fairly optimistic. I sometimes fly SNBA, and on those flights even 60 was way overrated.

That's a difference of 90 pax that poses a serious disadvantage, even when they benefit from aircraft dedicated stairs, small airports, no seat tickets, etc etc.

This makes Ryanair even more impressive...

And how about Easyjet? Vueling? Mostly larger airports with jetways and no stairs on board.

To get things straight: yes, a 30 minutes turnaround is difficult to guarantee. But if all ops work like a swiss watch, you could actually do it.

Darjeeling
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Post by Darjeeling »

A LOT OF CRAP AND STUPIDITIES. That's what I read here. This turns out to become an endless discussion. Comparing the wage of a Molenbeek policeman and a b-air cabin crew or things like that will not make things easier.
:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:
This should remain internal to SN for me.
Even though in some ways the SN management is just receiving now "the invoice" for their complete amateurism in how they treated their flying personeel (How many have "fled" the last three years ??).

b-west

Post by b-west »

Don't get me wrong... I just made that post out of a reaction of people apparently being shy about telling how much they earn... and I did add that I was comparing apples with oranges, or appelen met peren in dutch, meaning that they are indeed quite uncomparable.
This should remain internal to SN for me.
Seeing the crew is going to hold actions tomorrow, which will be visible for the entire world, I suppose this isn't an internal affair anymore.

And just for the record, I have the utmost respect for the SN crew members, I absolutely love their service and wish the new SN a glorious future... but that still doesn't keep me from thinking that these actions are a bit uncalled for and that the timing is really really bad. I mean, this is the first day of a new airline, possibly lots of media attention... and then you get this. Refusal to wear the new uniforms, delays and no service on board for b-light. How will that show in the media... how will possible future customers react when they see this? It doesn't exactly portray the image of a reliable airline...

foxtrot_lima_yankee
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Post by foxtrot_lima_yankee »

Downgrading from SN while upgrading from VEX and taking something in between is the BA strategy.
I personally don t care that there will be no service in the B'light cabins: The flights are mostly within 2 hours of flight time and on-board sandwiches as well as drinks are very expensive.
PAX will just need to buy their drinks before boarding.

And I agree about people being shy about discussing the salaries they get. Even at my workplace people hide their 'loonfiche' though we all get payed the same...

Yeah the timing for the actions is a bit wrong, I agree, they should ve done it today, on the last day of VEX-SN.
Maybe the actions will attract more attention throughout the world?
And maybe that ll make sure the news would nt pass unnoticed??
Might be good publicity for BA though...

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euroflyer
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Post by euroflyer »

foxtrot_lima_yankee wrote:Might be good publicity for BA though...
:roll: :oops: :?: :roll: :shock: :shock:

Is that what you call good publicity? The only message at least frequent travellers will get is: There is a new airline and they struggle with some kind of industrial action already on the first day, so if you want to be sure to arrive at your destination on time make sure NOT to choose that carrier :!: Perfect publicity, wonderful.
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Established02
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Post by Established02 »

TWA wrote:hi werknemer, just to let you know that your English really sucks.
Hello TWA, this remark is a bit rough and may not really help the conversation, does it?
You may not have to agree with werknemer's viewpoint, but I believe he/she is very sincere at least.
Therefore please don't be too much distracted by some grammar and spelling issues. Regards.

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