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babolat-blast
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Joined: 27 Jul 2006, 11:38

Post by babolat-blast »

I agree that quite a lot needs to be done in those 30 minutes, but I think most of all the work here mentioned is not done by the crew. It's just a case of efficient timing. I know from a very good source working for a major full service national airline that 30 minutes is not really a problem. He even prefers it as 40 to 45 minutes is much too long and boring for a crew member. But that's ofcourse one point of view, not everyone has the same drive, which I respect.
But I must admit, that the change from 40 to 30 minutes must ofcourse be talked about it before putting it into reality. There you have definitely a point and that's indeed a failure of the management. But still I find it sad, cause the first day of the new Brussels Airlines era should have some magical feeling about it and that's not what is going to happen...

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Avro
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Post by Avro »

Voice of Reason wrote: There are two sides to this discussion and therefore surely two sides who could be accused of being “picky” over those ten minutes. As you know I have stated that those ten minutes represent degradation of conditions of service for cabin crew and, more importantly, a degradation of safety standards for the whole operation. In the interest of a constructive discussion it would be interesting to learn what those ten minutes represent to the management and how this can be reconciled with everyone’s number one concern, safety.
Yes of course there are two sides to the story, I don't deny that !!

I suggest the following in order to have a constructive discussion. Let's analyse the situation in a more rational and less emotional way.

These are the things a crew needs to do turing a turn around according to crew memebrs who posted in this topic (please correct me if I'm wrong as I'm not a crew memeber):

1. Deplane pax ( ~10 min.)

3. Clean the aircraft (~15 min effetive --> with 3 crew memebers = 5 min. )

4. Run a complete security scan of the cabin (I don't know how long it takes but ~10 minutes --> with 2 crew members = 5 min. seems reasonable)

5. Catering supervised by 1 crew memeber during security

This makes 10+5+5 = 20 minutes of the turn around which was used to deplane, clean and make the security check.

The refueling doesn't need any special crew activity as far as I know, which means that each crew memebr would have 10 minutes left for himself to eat a little snack and go to the toilet.



Why shouldn't it be possible ?

Chris

PS: I'm here to understand the situation in a rational way so please respond in a constructive way ;) I don't mean to offend any crew members. I respect your hard work a lot, but I just want to understand why it wouldn't be possible to do the turn around in 30 minutes with the same level of safety.

werknemer
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Joined: 23 Mar 2007, 13:57

Post by werknemer »

answer to avro

How many hours do cabin crew work on average basis per week ?

we have contracts of block hours

in a month normally around 75
but know we do more
so can not answer it, but our day start with sign in!
en sign out
and some times we are 5 hours working but sometime we are 11 or even more hours working
so it's not only the flighthours, it's all you must see
but for poeple who do not work as crew they think we only fly from a to b and thats it!
but there is a lot more!


By how many hours is the workload increased with the new turn around time ?

don't know yet because we have only planning till 14 april


the all point is very clear

rules are for everyone!
if in the contract is written 40 min
they can not change to 30 without a approval of the unions

because if we do nothing what else will they change!
it's about our future not yours


we got a lot of workload to do!
allways more productive, flexyble for the same money!
and now it's enough

and pax will have the minimum inconvinience

the only thing we want is good conditions for all (crew and company) and a secure future
thats all!

most poeple just see the positive things of a job!
never the bad ones!

so next time try to think about that
and please, look what a beautifull job we have that some of my crew and friends are stuck in a hotel room behind baricaded windows where poeple are shooting everywhere in the streets!

you see, it's not always fun see and sun

JAFflyer
Posts: 196
Joined: 06 Nov 2006, 14:36

Post by JAFflyer »

What I wonder is...how are the SN-VEX pilots reacting to all of this, because we only hear the cabin crew point of view.
Still, let it be clear, that what is happening now is very disappointing for entire Belgian aviation so please know what you are all doing when the 25th of March is comming!

Voice of Reason
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Joined: 23 Mar 2007, 13:24

Post by Voice of Reason »

Avro wrote:
Yes of course there are two sides to the story, I don't deny that !!

I suggest the following in order to have a constructive discussion. Let's analyse the situation in a more rational and less emotional way.

These are the things a crew needs to do turing a turn around according to crew memebrs who posted in this topic (please correct me if I'm wrong as I'm not a crew memeber):
Avro wrote:1. Deplane pax ( ~10 min.)
Not quite, it depends on the number of Pax of course. Ten minutes is fine for an all business type destination like Berlin or Geneva. As soon as you have families travelling with small children or infants you can easily add five minutes. If you have wheel chair pax add at least ten. U/Ms another five, more than 130 pax on a 737 then add five etc. If you want to build a schedule then you must consider the worst case scenario or at least worst common case scenario. More realistic to allow 15 to 20 mins for deplaning. Same for boarding to be safe
Avro wrote:3. Clean the aircraft (~15 min effetive --> with 3 crew memebers = 5 min. )
Cleaners must arrive first, not a problem in Geneva or Berlin, a big problem in Rome or Madrid. All IDs checked and they spring into action. Actually they spring into the centre of the cabin for a chat. Unprompted they’ll take about 20 minutes as well.
Avro wrote:4. Run a complete security scan of the cabin (I don't know how long it takes but ~10 minutes --> with 2 crew members = 5 min. seems reasonable)
Again, not quite, overhead bins, Over the overhead bins, all 164 seat back pockets, all 164 life belt pouches, galley stowages, lavatory bins security and servicing towels etc. A full security check is not to be underestimated. You should have a go next time you’re on an aircraft. This process can't be completed until the cleaners are off. This is the area where corners will be cut and I find that worrying. Can you imagine that one of 164 passengers had hidden an IED in the cabin and it is your job to find it. Could you guarantee that you will find it in 10 minutes?
Avro wrote:5. Catering supervised by 1 crew memeber during security
Yes, true and you could even stuff down a sandwich while doing so but you can't help your colleagues so that slows the other tasks.
Avro wrote:This makes 10+5+5 = 20 minutes of the turn around which was used to deplane, clean and make the security check.

The refueling doesn't need any special crew activity as far as I know, which means that each crew memebr would have 10 minutes left for himself to eat a little snack and go to the toilet.
No, refuelling does not need any cabin crew activity but it does delay boarding in some airports and always delays boarding when the catering truck is there. I think that you are still underestimating the role of cabin crew.

I repeat for clarity’s sake; the schedule should be achievable in all but the least foreseeable circumstances. To say “that should be just about do-able most of the time” will lead to delays and encourage corner cutting in safety and security.l and less emotional way.

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Avro
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Post by Avro »

So if I get it right, the cabin crew is not even doing the cleaning of the aircraft ? is that right ? I thought you where doing this at SN (I'm sorry if I mis-understood)

Well that means you have time to eat and take a break when the people are cleaning the aircraft. The crew then needs to supervise the catering and do the security check.. So for the crew it should be manageable to do short turn arounds with the same level of safety at one condition however: And that is that the external company doing the cleaning are well aware of the tight schedule. But that's the management's job to make contracts with reliable suppliers.
I think that you are still underestimating the role of cabin crew.
No I'm not underestimating the work and responsibilities of the cabin crew. And know what you guys/girls are doing everyday.

However I tried to go back to the basics of the problem in order to point out that that the cabing crew should be able to do the turn around in the 30 minutes as asked. All the bottleneck operations and issues are coming from other people working for external companies. So it's not because of you that the plane would be delayed in the end. That means that IF SN puts enough effort in making contracts with reliable and good external companies (catering, cleaning); the turn around of 30 minutes IS achievable without any irrealistic increase of workload for the cabin crew and with the same level of safety !!!
we have contracts of block hours

in a month normally around 75
but know we do more
so can not answer it, but our day start with sign in!
en sign out
and some times we are 5 hours working but sometime we are 11 or even more hours working
so it's not only the flighthours, it's all you must see
but for poeple who do not work as crew they think we only fly from a to b and thats it!
but there is a lot more!
Ok so if I get it right an average cabi ncrew works 80 hours a month (sign in sign out - that's what I was asking for, not the flight times ;))

If we assume the 80 hours are shared evenly on 5 days a week and 4 weeks a month, that makes an average of 4 hours (sign-in sign-out) a day
:shock: I don't think the increase of productivity the crew is asked to do will have a dramatic impact on your work. With 80 hours a month, you should have sufficient resting times to compensate the hard work you need to deliver in those 4 hours. Again I'm not under estimating your work, I'm just trying to find out the reasons for the rejection of the new turn around time.

Chris

FlightMate
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Joined: 15 Mar 2007, 14:39

Post by FlightMate »

hum, that's 75h flight time actually... Briefing 1h before the 1st flight, flight preparation between flights, sign out 30 minutes after the last flight.

As a pilot, I'd say 30 minutes turn around is not impossible in practice, but as soon as you leave with a delay (technical, slot, etc...) you'll never be able to catch it during the day. And finally, the passengers will be the victims (missed connections).
Furthermore, I agree with our cabin crew about the management's attitude: "sorry, it's too late, and we forgot to tell you about it three months ago" is simply not acceptable.

And ask yourself how safe it is to rush approaches, land with tailwind, taxi at highspeed, just to gain some precious minutes?

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euroflyer
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Post by euroflyer »

Honestly, I do not get the discussion here anymore. :roll:

I think we do not have to add minutes, there are airlines in the real world out there which have at least at certain airports turnaround times of less than 40 minutes, so obviously it is possible :shock:

My feeling is, this is all a game of showing who is more powerful: unions or management. Up to a certain point I can understand both sides:

(1) The management has to introduce changes in a business environment with ever enhancing competition, the alternative is going out of business :oops:

(2) The unions have to insist the agreements are respected, otherwise there is no sense in having a union ... :roll:

So the only solution is to talk to each other. If it is obviously no problem to turn round an aircarft in 30 minutes (see above) and VEX does it already, there is not much sense in insisting on 40 minutes in the future as well; this will just mean less competetiveness, less money for the company, less jobs. I expect the unions already know that and just try to get some compensation anywhere else - that would be the normal behaviour (I might not have internal knowledge of an airline, just doing 150+ European flights each year ... :lol: - but I am a professional in industrial relations :wink: )

The worst case is if customers are affected, he guys, they pay for your salary :!: :!: And if you indeed try to continue the 'old' SNBA product on Sunday instead of the new b.light and b.flex and try to delay departures different from what you have been told by your company be assured passengers are affected by this :twisted: :evil: :twisted:
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A390
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Post by A390 »

Avro made a sum of the duties to be performed during turn-around and ends with 30 min, but he forgets to add time to board new pax...flying back home empty is not the most economical way of operating :roll:

Boeing747-nurse
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Post by Boeing747-nurse »

I know how bad the cabin crew of SNBA has been treated by their management till now,...realy bad!!!
Do you all know they are often humiliated in there so cald "evaluations", by their "o so good coaches"!!!
Their evaluation system of the crew is FAR FROM objectif/neutral, and causes discrimination between the crewmembers...
I invite CA of SNBA to state my opinion...

So what you are seeing now is also a reaction against all this incompetent behaviour of their (mid-) management...

I can understand their anger, and I think there actions are still quite soft...

This managment will now receive what it has created the past years!!! :evil:

Flybe
Posts: 405
Joined: 18 Sep 2003, 00:00

Post by Flybe »

I am not surprised that some here do not understand the minutiae of another’s profession.
managers never work because they just sit behind their desks. Actually that one might be quite close to the truth.
or one of the undereffective techniciens, that have to do extra hours?
... :roll: Talk about people that do not understand what other people do...

Degradation of safety standards
a degradation of safety standards for the whole operation.
encourage corner cutting in safety and security.
You mean... all other airlines that do it in 30 minutes (or less) are compromising on safety?! :roll:

You even mean... Virgin Express was all the time compromising on safety, since they do this already?! :roll:

I don't want to start a war overhere, but I do want to put some things in perspective.

I do agree that a contract is a contract and it should be followed or renegotiated. Negotiation is the only way out, and not any other type of action employees will choose to do.

Especially on the launching day of the company, it will hurt the marketing efforts done by BruAir. It will hurt the company, it will hurt you. And YES, that's your job on the line because of that.

I don't work in the airline industry, I'm not a manager, but I do try to use as much as GBV I have. (Gezond BoerenVerstand, or a healthy business-mind).

Greets,

Pieter

fcw
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Post by fcw »

Avro wrote:Dear werknemer,
werknemer wrote: do you agree to work 45 hours and be paid 38?
I don't see the point of this statement ??

Could you please answer me the two following questions:

:arrow: How many hours do cabin crew work on average basis per week ?

:arrow: By how many hours is the workload increased with the new turn around time ?

Chris
Cabin crew work 45 to 50 hours a week and this includes, saturdays, sun days and holidays. Don't talk in flying hours like MOLE likes to do, but realworking hours!
SN cabin crew is the worst paid in the industry (less than half of Easy Jet as an example), so if they are asked to do a bit more, they deserve a bit more salary.
Why does Bru Air need two AOC's, two flight ops managements and so many directors with shiny company cars? That is were savings can and should be done! :idea:

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Avro
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Post by Avro »

fcw wrote: Cabin crew work 45 to 50 hours a week and this includes, saturdays, sun days and holidays. Don't talk in flying hours like MOLE likes to do, but realworking hours!
I never said that I wanted to know the flying hours !! on the contrary, it's your answer which I wanted to know.

Secondly it seems some cabin crew memebers feeled offended by my posts. I would like to repeat it again, but it's not the purpose of my post to offend any of you.

All I wanted to do is to ask questions in order to get facts as responses on why it isn't possible to do such turn arounds. Simply stating that it's not possible, doesn't lead us anywhere and doesn't provide enough info to the public viewer to make his/her opinion.
Avro made a sum of the duties to be performed during turn-around and ends with 30 min, but he forgets to add time to board new pax...flying back home empty is not the most economical way of operating
Indeed I forgot it :oops:, but some airlines such as VEX seem to be able to achieve that goal without forgetting the pax.. ;)

Chris

airazurxtror
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Post by airazurxtror »

Voice of Reason wrote:
Not quite, it depends on the number of Pax of course. Ten minutes is fine for an all business type destination like Berlin or Geneva. As soon as you have families travelling with small children or infants you can easily add five minutes. If you have wheel chair pax add at least ten. U/Ms another five, more than 130 pax on a 737 then add five etc. If you want to build a schedule then you must consider the worst case scenario or at least worst common case scenario. More realistic to allow 15 to 20 mins for deplaning. Same for boarding to be safe
10 minutes basic time
plus 5 for families
plus 10 for wheel chair
plus 5 for U/M
plus 5 for more than 130 pax
We are at 35 minutes just for deplaning .... not counting the other tasks.
How come they can do the whole turn around in 40 minutes at present ?
And how do you explain that the LCC do the turn around of a 189 pax 737-800 in 25-30 minutes, routinely ?

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Bob_Marcotte
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Post by Bob_Marcotte »

airazurxtror wrote:
10 minutes basic time
plus 5 for families
plus 10 for wheel chair
plus 5 for U/M
plus 5 for more than 130 pax
We are at 35 minutes just for deplaning .... not counting the other tasks.
10+5= 15 / 10+10=20 / 10+5= 15 / 10+5= 15
So where do you get the 35?

10-15 minutes for deplaning 130+ pax seems about right to me
airazurxtror wrote:
And how do you explain that the LCC do the turn around of a 189 pax 737-800 in 25-30 minutes, routinely ?
simple: minimum (if at all) catering to be loaded, minimum cleaning done by crew, extra charge to be paid if you check in luggage, free seating !, use of smaller airports,...

Out of experience (at BRU) I know that 25-30 min turnaround time is fine for aircraft like the dash8, f50, embraers, canadairs, perhaps the avro but for bigger aircraft it's just not a realistic turaround time...

Just my 2 cents

werknemer
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Post by werknemer »

with 80 hours i mean flighttime!

thats the time we really fly

but we also have the sign in time, waiting time in the cold for bus, walking time to aircraft, waiting for groundstaff, pax, our duty before the flight (checks), after flight then we deboard pax, when the cleaning is busy, we try to stay away from them because it must go very quick and as you know there is not a lot of space on the avro, then all checks again, pax boarding and here we leave again!
all that time is not in our contract
for ex
i got to do BRU VIE BRU BHX BRU
sing in 10:00
est dep 11:00
est arr 12:40
est dep 13: 30
est arr 15:10
est dep 15:50
est arr 16:40
est dep 17:20
est arr 18:10
time to sing out 18:50

so we worked for 8:50
but we only flew 5 hours
so at the end of the month we worked around 110 and 120 hours
what makes 30 hours a week
and believe me we got a very unhealty job, different hours to eat sleep
different beds, social stress not to be at home every day to see your family, the pressure on board, durong the flight always be focused on your job, and lots more


do you know where and when we must eat on a quite full aircraft?
most of you should know it because you travel all days!!!!!!

yes, in front of the toilet, when poeple have to go or when the seatbelt is on or sometimes we even have no time to sit!
on some flight we are still cleaning the cabin and the seatbelt is already on
and ones again!

it's not about the 30 or 40 min turnaround!!!
it's about the fact that the management changed it without asking or any agreement!
in our contract is written 40 min!
of course we can do it in 30min if vex does it!
but why do we always have to accept everything coming from above!
if we say something it's always the same answers
lucky you can fly with us
if you are not happy you can leave
what most crew want is some respect from our bosses!
we already did a lot for our company, much more then one of you would ever do!
because we know the lucky we are to have such a great job, and thats also the reason why we dind't agree the cao, to keep our job great , not only for us, but also for the next crews!

so if you think that we got the best job and that we do almost nothing and very well paid, quit yours and try to work with us
i am sure that 70% of you will quit in less then 6 moths!!
so ones again, do not talk about things you think you know, but you don't
we just want the best for crew, pax and company!

foxtrot_lima_yankee
Posts: 145
Joined: 04 Nov 2005, 00:00

Post by foxtrot_lima_yankee »

Cabin-crew staff are complaining everywhere in the world, not only at SN!!
Look at Ryanair's for example.
Some people do though not realise how lucky they are to have those jobs!!
I m sure cabin crew staff earn around 2000€ net a month.
I m working hard for just 1200€ a month just to pay my ATPL-course. That includes getting a gun pointed towards me during a hold-up.
Please stop messing about such ridiculous ten minutes problems.

If you can not achieve them, the planes will be late. Don t rush it, keep working at your pace!!! It is the passenger' s responsability to make sure they book connections with a sufficient marge of time.
As a PAX, I always make sure I ve got at least 2 hours and a half between two flights.

If PAX book connections with just 1 hour of marge, that's their problem and their own fault. For that, BA ticketing should cooperate with you guys and make sure not to bookconnections too tight.
A plane could be late for up to 1 hour for anything else:
Avoiding storm areas, strong headwinds, cues at the airports, cues at the markers,...
And finally as a PAX you don t really care weither you arrive 30 minutes earlier or later, as long as you arrive safe.

I think the managers just want to tell you guys: Keep it to 30 minutes, if possible. They won t start firing anyone because of that.
And if the 30 minutes is not a possible issue, they will see that.

Your managers also have to show they are doing something. Remember, they are also under the constant pressure of shareholders,...


Don t take it too straight.
They like you guys, they appreciate what you guys do, cause you guys are behind the logo you carry!!
You guys make it all possible!!


PS: Low-cost carriers' advantage on you guys is that they don t need to care about connecting passengers. That s why they can achieve a 30 minutes turn-around without needing to stress too much.Brussels Airlines should also put in their policies that they can not be hold responsable for delays up to 90 minutes.
That way, all problems would be resolved, would n they?

werknemer
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Joined: 23 Mar 2007, 13:57

Post by werknemer »

2000 euro net???
haha very good one
i wish!!!!!!!!!

ones again
do not talk about things you don't know
because poeple will believe it!

foxtrot_lima_yankee
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Joined: 04 Nov 2005, 00:00

Post by foxtrot_lima_yankee »

So how much do you earn?

werknemer
Posts: 22
Joined: 23 Mar 2007, 13:57

Post by werknemer »

no need to know

but much less the 2000 net!!!

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