SN Brussels Airlines and Virgin Express going together

b-west · Post by **b-west** » 23 Aug 2006, 11:57

Avro wrote:Why put extra seats in an Avro if you can't even fill them up with a smaller number of seats ?

exactly...

teddybAIR · Post by **teddybAIR** » 23 Aug 2006, 13:48

Because it fits in their strategy to offer two different products on every aircraft: it will allow them to offer a basic product (based on vex) and an upgraded product (based on sn) on one single aircraft.

Personally, I don't believe in such a strategy that tries to make a compromise between two solutions. I think it will result in them excelling in neither of both. Potential competitors focussing on one of the two ends of this spectrum shouldn't have a hard time to tailor their offering better to the needs of one of both target groups. If you allow me to over-simplify the situation a little: it will only take two competitors (a no-frill and an added service one) to take this new carrier out of business.

IMHO the most succesful businessplans are the coherent/consistent ones, where every single decision reflects the target/strategy. With two strategies to follow, compromises will need to be made and in a few years, the carrier could be fighting to stay out of 'the order of the grey mice'.

Just my 2 cents

KLC · Post by **KLC** » 23 Aug 2006, 22:24

teddybAIR wrote:Because it fits in their strategy to offer two different products on every aircraft: it will allow them to offer a basic product (based on vex) and an upgraded product (based on sn) on one single aircraft.

Personally, I don't believe in such a strategy that tries to make a compromise between two solutions. I think it will result in them excelling in neither of both.

I totally agree.
Besides, I flew SN for the very first time a couple of days ago and I was really impressed about the service! It's actually sad that this company is going to disappear and that they will turn it into a -partially- low cost airline!

Established02 · Post by **Established02** » 24 Aug 2006, 07:53

Avro wrote:Why put extra seats in an Avro if you can't even fill them up with a smaller number of seats ?

Overall SN may indeed have a rather humble load factor, however they certainly have also flights that go full, flights that are being overbooked, flights where capacity can hardly meet demand... Those are actually the moments where you can make some nice money. It's painful having to turn away last minute passengers that are actually willing to pay $$$($) if only you had a seat for them.

So revenue wise I believe it does make sense to add these extra seats, even though these extra seats won't be getting used on probably a large majority of all flights. Apparently it has been decided that this potentiel in extra revenue is more important for SN than the extra passenger service in flying 2+3 versus 3+3.

Established02 · Post by **Established02** » 24 Aug 2006, 08:25

EBBR wrote:Latest rumours:
SN removed all the feet rests months ago to reduce weigth.

Does SN encounter weight restrictions on any route, causing limited payload?

In any case, less weight in the aircraft will positively affect the fuel burn and reduce the operational cost.

eurojet · Post by **eurojet** » 24 Aug 2006, 08:51

I flew SN also the first time two weeks ago, BRU-BIO-BRU in C-class, and I was really impressed as well, in one word, service (plenty of drinks, my wife and I really got hammered, good food, excellent cabin crew) was top-class. We paid with airmiles (thanks Amex). On the other hand, who still needs this type of service? On both legs, we were about the only ones in C (and then didn't even pay for it), so, although a very good product, I think it is indeed "outdated" on short-haul intra-European. We can get nostalgic about it, but all those gimmicks ("do you want ice in your Bailey's, Sir", "do you want "De Morgen" or " De Standaard"?) are just a thing of the past and for the Etienne Davignon's of this planet. The new SN rather focuses on 1) good connections and timetables 2) honest service (VEX had it right with their service and pricing, Vueling has it right as as well) 3) correct pricing 4) good pre- and after flight service, which is for me as important as the in-flight service. I am not sure their future business model is doomed to fail. The current one, seeing their loads, is.

Cartman · Post by **Cartman** » 24 Aug 2006, 12:30

C-Class on SN flights may be empty now, but wait until september. When all the business traffic comes out again, C-cass will be nicely filled. Certainly on other destinations than BIO (e.g. GVA, FRA, BHX, MAD, PRG, MXP...)

B737A320 · Post by **B737A320** » 24 Aug 2006, 12:44

all those gimmicks ("do you want ice in your Bailey's, Sir", "do you want "De Morgen" or " De Standaard"?) are just a thing of the past and for the Etienne Davignon's of this planet

It seems to work quiet well for VLM who made that practice their trademark for several years now.

Qwerty · Post by **Qwerty** » 24 Aug 2006, 15:06

I've read somewhere herei n this thread that SN will put the two 'models' in one aircraft. Could be possibile, but remember that the Virgin fleet will be maintained. As long as I can have my booked seat in the flight in June 2007 to FCO , I'm happy. I've already paid, so no problems in that

sn-remember · Post by **sn-remember** » 24 Aug 2006, 17:26

Established02 wrote:
Avro wrote:Why put extra seats in an Avro if you can't even fill them up with a smaller number of seats ?
Overall SN may indeed have a rather humble load factor, however they certainly have also flights that go full, flights that are being overbooked, flights where capacity can hardly meet demand... Those are actually the moments where you can make some nice money. It's painful having to turn away last minute passengers that are actually willing to pay $$$($) if only you had a seat for them.

So revenue wise I believe it does make sense to add these extra seats, even though these extra seats won't be getting used on probably a large majority of all flights. Apparently it has been decided that this potentiel in extra revenue is more important for SN than the extra passenger service in flying 2+3 versus 3+3.

Yes but
why don't they fit the extra seats only on some of the planes?
And assign those planes dynamically to the flights that need the extra seats (on a flight by flight basis), thus adapting in real time the capacity to the demand.
That would probably meet the interests of the financiers and those of the passengers which are anyway intertwined

Established02 · Post by **Established02** » 24 Aug 2006, 20:56

sn-remember wrote:but why don't they fit the extra seats only on some of the planes? And assign those planes dynamically to the flights that need the extra seats (on a flight by flight basis), thus adapting in real time the capacity to the demand.
That would probably meet the interests of the financiers and those of the passengers which are anyway intertwined

I understand that ideally we would like to save "the cabbage and the goat" (Dutch: de kool en de geit sparen) and to please everyone.

I have no any info about SN's actual decision, however I would guess that ultimately it would be better to reconfigure the whole fleet, rather than a limited amount of aircraft.

I'm not familiar with the power of scheduling software, however I can imagine that it would be quite a challenge for aircraft scheduling to consistently and accurately assign these few aircraft with increased seat capacity to those flights that actually need that increased capacity.

For a business airline like SN there is always a morning peak and an evening peak. I would guess that many flights actually go full between 07:30-09:30 and between 16:30-18:30. The whole fleet is expected to be active during that period. So all flights during that period could benefit from an increased seat capacity. Therefore it would be required to add extra seats on all aircraft. The reason that SN has a rather low overall load factor is probably due to poor loads on off peak flights, which may be partially explained by a limited amount of connecting passengers. In reference, KLM has an amazing capacity to fill up off peak flights with loads of connecting passengers.

EBBR · Post by **EBBR** » 02 Sep 2006, 00:34

I have heard rumours that the strategy of future SN/VEX is far from being decided, also major disagreements between Neil Burrows and the board of directors which direction to take in the future. That's the main reason why there is nothing to tell right now.

Post by **sn26567** » 03 Sep 2006, 09:19

EBBR wrote:major disagreements between Neil Burrows and the board of directors

Why worry about Neil Burrows' opinion. He is departing anyway. Please let the board discuss with the new CEO Van de Putte!

Atlantis · Post by **Atlantis** » 03 Sep 2006, 12:35

Very weird.

First they announced they want to open new lines to the USA and add three long haul planes to the fleet.

Now there are "rumours", so if its true or not, that's the question, there are some problems about the future of both airlines.

I suppose when you announce something, that means that the majority gives its go for those plans.

Airbus330lover · Post by **Airbus330lover** » 03 Sep 2006, 12:45

Atlantis wrote:Very weird.

First they announced they want to open new lines to the USA and add three long haul planes to the fleet.

Now there are "rumours", so if its true or not, that's the question, there are some problems about the future of both airlines.

I suppose when you announce something, that means that the majority gives its go for those plans.

Rumours...
No official plan, no real communication.... sad future.

Captain on board?.... my doubts

TWA · Post by **TWA** » 03 Sep 2006, 12:53

Welcome to the twilight-zone!!!

Verry funny : Even customers on board ask us whether it is ok to continue booking on our flights for next season.

But most of the staff seems still very optimistic. So no worries. Don't believe all the rumours. I really had to laugh when somebody already "did see" the new safety demo cards with new logo and name.: there is no such thing.

Airbus330lover · Post by **Airbus330lover** » 03 Sep 2006, 14:19

TWA wrote:Welcome to the twilight-zone!!!

Verry funny : Even customers on board ask us whether it is ok to continue booking on our flights for next season.

But most of the staff seems still very optimistic. So no worries. Don't believe all the rumours. I really had to laugh when somebody already "did see" the new safety demo cards with new logo and name.: there is no such thing.

Optimistic.... you seems to forget the no decision/communication of SNBA/VIRGIN.

Lack of comm is ok for a short term, but.... it's september now

Post by **Kapitein** » 04 Sep 2006, 17:59

TWA wrote:Welcome to the twilight-zone!!!

Verry funny : Even customers on board ask us whether it is ok to continue booking on our flights for next season.

I hope so, mine is already booked for February to Stockholm.

Sabena_690 · Post by **Sabena_690** » 04 Sep 2006, 19:53

Why exactly shouldn't you continue booking tickets?

I only see advantages, as one airline will offer a much broader number of destinations.

Optimistic.... you seems to forget the no decision/communication of SNBA/VIRGIN.

Lack of comm is ok for a short term, but.... it's september now

And what exactly should have to be communicated? The new product details are still confidential, and will be announced at a big press conference.

Airbus330lover · Post by **Airbus330lover** » 05 Sep 2006, 08:38

And what exactly should have to be communicated?

What?
If they have nothing to communicate.... then theay have a big problem.
Merging announced more than 8 months.
Changing CEO months ago.
Decision not made?
Communication becomes more and more important, every airline or company is perfecting his communication, SNBA .... lack of communication.

Perhaps they're still in the sixties ....
(FYI i'm FF by SNBA and in I have the choise, i ALWAYS flight with SNBA)