Brussels Airlines new service in b.flex : doritos ?

[Flanker]

So I think SN is on the right track, however, they might consider merging b.flex and b.light some time, as the difference in the service is not so big anymore and you can have different kind of flexibility within eco without different service classes on board.

I also proposed this a while ago, but in the current tight environment, SN can't do that because of the risk of losing yields in b.flex and/or volume in b.light.

For me as, what you would call a corporate traveller, there are a number of things which are most important

(1) schedule
(2) punctuality
(3) fast service at check-in & security, boarding and de-boarding
(4) possibility to take some hand-luggage on board and to check-in luggage (if needed) very fast and without any additional payments or 'bureaucratic procedures'
(5) Lounge access (not for fun, but in order to have a quiet place to work with my laptop

I admit food on board sometimes is convenient if I have a very tight schedule and not much time for any kind of meal at my destination or at the airport, but it is not "important" ...

Sure, but you're less than 10% of all airline customers.
Airlines like SN love you and tailor their offer to your needs.

They fly extra frequencies, give you a lounge, a mileage card program, they keep empty seats to accommodate flight changes.
That costs the airline a lot of money.

All other pax don't need that, plus punctuality and airport experience is much better at Ryanair!

Isn't it utterly stupid to base an entire company's strategy on a small minority of good customers who aren't even bothered to book the most expensive tickets, but rather receive corporate account discounts and also cost a lot to keep happy?

What a tunnel vision management.

[cnc]

All other pax don't need that, plus punctuality and airport experience is much better at Ryanair!

i didn't know FR owns an airport or terminal and punctuality... they don't have transit pax, important belly cargo, fly much less to busy airports/hours etc. imho its kind of low and unfair to compare.

[Inquirer]

For me as, what you would call a corporate traveller, there are a number of things which are most important
(1) schedule
(2) punctuality
(3) fast service at check-in & security, boarding and de-boarding
(4) possibility to take some hand-luggage on board and to check-in luggage (if needed) very fast and without any additional payments or 'bureaucratic procedures'
(5) Lounge access (not for fun, but in order to have a quiet place to work with my laptop
I admit food on board sometimes is convenient if I have a very tight schedule and not much time for any kind of meal at my destination or at the airport, but it is not "important" ...

Sure, but you're less than 10% of all airline customers.
Airlines like SN love you and tailor their offer to your needs.

It is not about how many we are, but how much revenues we generate IMHO.
Unless you have data about the share of b.flex I assume you are just guessing it is a 10% share?
From my own observation however, b.flex seems to have a share of around 1/4 th of the pax volume (don't take the Saturday southbound flight to AGP as a reference, think also Monday morning to TXL for instance), so knowing we pay more than double the price of a nonflexible ticket, we logically make up the biggest revenues source.

Besides, I restate my question: you're criticising network airlines for focussing on the corporate segment (i.e. those flying economy WITH flexibility) because they are aiming at a group too small according to you, yet are meanwhile advocating going after an infinisimally smaller market niche even of those who can still fly business class (with or without flexibility, not clear from your concept): you thus constantly seem to be contradicting yourself.

Excuse my saying, but you are a bit too eager to devide the market between just LCC and bizz flight style operators probably because such would fit your personal interests. Take my word for it: neither is going to be used much by corporate flyers because the first are basically useless, the second too expensive for routine trips and since corporate flying isn't going to just disappear (in fact we seem to be getting more and more trips), logic dictates there will always be airlines looking after it.

[earthman]

LCCs have extremely cramped cabins with no legroom whatsoever. This makes them quite unpleasant even on a 1.5 hour flight. This seems to have been forgotten by everybody, for some reason or another.

[b-west]

I've done 14 trips already this year, short haul and long haul, eco and business on a variety of carriers, so I guess I can consider myself a frequent flyer. I don't really mind SN not serving a meal outside lunch / dinner hours. But I think a more healthy choice iso Doritos and the likes would be nice. Why not a small fruit plate?

SN is indeed following a trend. I just hope that they won't go all AZ and will keep serving a meal during appropriate hours, because sometimes you just don't have the time to get some food before you board a plane.

I don't agree with Euroflyer when he states that the diff between flex and light is not that big. The difference is still very noticeable, going from the inflight service to ofcourse the freedom you have when it comes to changing a ticket. I wasn't too big a fan of the whole flex/light concept in the beginning, but now I do see the advantages it offers, to the airline and pax alike.

And returning to the catering: I noticed that the choice in C for longhaul has gone from 4 to 3 meals.

[earthman]

When I flew with Horizon Air (some sort of regional subsidiary of alaskan?) on a Q400 a few years ago, the in-flight meal consisted of a bag of peanuts.

[b-west]

When I flew with Horizon Air (some sort of regional subsidiary of alaskan?) on a Q400 a few years ago, the in-flight meal consisted of a bag of peanuts.

The same goes for Alitalia. And I think lots of other airlines as well.

[Flanker]

LCCs have extremely cramped cabins with no legroom whatsoever. This makes them quite unpleasant even on a 1.5 hour flight. This seems to have been forgotten by everybody, for some reason or another.

Ryanair offers more legroom than SN B737's and the same as the A319 B.flex.

It is not about how many we are, but how much revenues we generate IMHO.
Unless you have data about the share of b.flex I assume you are just guessing it is a 10% share?
From my own observation however, b.flex seems to have a share of around 1/4 th of the pax volume (don't take the Saturday southbound flight to AGP as a reference, think also Monday morning to TXL for instance), so knowing we pay more than double the price of a nonflexible ticket, we logically make up the biggest revenues source.

Only a small portion of B.Flex are corporate frequent flyers.
All the rest are regular travellers or families who don't have a choice and wealthy people who aren't stupid enough to pay 200 euro extra to sit in the so-called "business class".

See: The real business class customer is that successful business owner who often manages his own budget and wants to travel with class. It's also the sales rep who makes millions in sales for a modest salary package and prefers perks in nature rather than more salary taxed at 57%. It's the retired army commander, the retired self-employed emigrant, the shareholder of a major company, the cocaine retailer, the high-earning lawyer, judge, notary, doctor, dentist, real-estate owner.

Those are people who choose when and how they fly and when the choice is between flying cramped in the front two rows at 850 euro's, or a few more rows to the back at 600 euro's...

B.Flex can indeed be the largest booking class, that's because SN try to close-off all the b.light early to force everyone into B.flex. And because business class isn't worth the extra money.

[b-west]

Ryanair offers more legroom than SN B737's and the same as the A319 B.flex.

I don't think flex and light have diff legroom.

Only a small portion of B.Flex are corporate frequent flyers.
All the rest are regular travellers or families who don't have a choice and wealthy people who aren't stupid enough to pay 200 euro extra to sit in the so-called "business class".


B.Flex can indeed be the largest booking class, that's because SN try to close-off all the b.light early to force everyone into B.flex. And because business class isn't worth the extra money.

Do you have any proof to back those two statements?

[Inquirer]

The real business class customers (...) are people who choose when and how they fly and when the choice is between flying cramped in the front two rows at 850 euro's, or a few more rows to the back at 600 euro's....

Given none of the people you list there are considered frequent flyers in the sense that I can't see most of them fly several times weekly year round like corporate passengers do, you would need a whole lot of them to have sufficient revenues to sustain the purely business class airline you have talked about in your previous posting.
Why do you think you can convince people in Belgium to fly real business class on shorthaul these days if you'd give them the "real product" so to say?
Enough to fill even the smallest plane several times daily on all key destinations?
I seriously doubt it: BA's subsidiary (forgot its name)can't even fill a 757 between 2 global business centres like Paris and New York, yet you think you could make SN fill multiple daily business class flights between lets say Brussels and Berlin for instance?
I think it is nothing but an illusion: I know for a fact we would certainly not be allowed to fly them and would simply take our business elsewhere (connecting through FRA most likely) and I think I can speak for other multinationals too and say they'd do exactly the same...
Given our travel budget is a multi million euro one (for our BELUX HQ alone) that's a whole lot of revenues you'd throw away and would somehow have to make good through selling individual business class tickets to dentists etc like you want to target.... needless to say I am doubtful of the market potential.

[Flanker]

Given none of the people you list there are considered frequent flyers in the sense that I can't see most of them fly several times weekly year round like corporate passengers do, you would need a whole lot of them to have sufficient revenues to sustain the purely business class airline you have talked about in your previous posting.

First of all, let's state things as they are, no one talked about a purely business class airline.
I quote myself: real business class and comfy economy class

Next, you're right, the profiles I mentionned aren't exactly all frequent flyers at least not if we're talking about BRU/Belgium. In countries like the UK, Germany, France, Spain and Italy, these can be domestic frequent flyers due to large distances between cities.

They fly 2 to 5 times per year, max. monthly.
Yet when they do fly, they either want a superior product at a high price, or to pay the least possible for a basic product. B.business and b.flex are a basic product for a high price. More and more people discover that LCC's offer similar products for much much less and even present advantages over SN.

It's only a matter of time for those people to migrate towards LCC's. LCC's see more and more customers. This allows them to offer more and more flights, and offer better frequencies and flexibility.
The only traditional carriers I see surviving in this environment are airlines that offer more than a blunt seat on a plane and an expensive ticket insurance on their schedule.
More and more people realize that they can insure against their own schedule changes by booking extra flights on Ryanair. It's still much cheaper than paying a b.flex ticket and having to pay even more in case of a last-minute schedule change.

Flanker wrote:

Ryanair offers more legroom than SN B737's and the same as the A319 B.flex.

I don't think flex and light have diff legroom.

They do. The last rows have slightly reduced legroom while the front few rows have larger legroom than the middle rows.

[earthman]

On KLM's 737s the front X rows (not sure how many exactly) have 33" pitch, the rest has 31". The difference is noticable, I always try to get a seat in the front of the economy section because of this. On the rare occasions that I fly with a KLM 737, of course.

[sn26567]

On KLM's 737s the front X rows (not sure how many exactly) have 33" pitch, the rest has 31".

On Brussels Airlines' 737s, the five first rows also have a larger pitch.

[Inquirer]

First of all, let's state things as they are, no one talked about a purely business class airline.
I quote myself: real business class and comfy economy class

Well you didn't say it that way at first, but let's not fight over it. I misunderstood you there for a moment.
Yet such a product is a nich product at best, best suited for airliners with a huge and extremely wealthy catchment area and large networks. Don't think Brussels airlines is suited for such an experiment. This is something for SWISS rather, if ever....

More and more people discover that LCC's offer similar products for much much less and even present advantages over SN. More and more people realize that they can insure against their own schedule changes by booking extra flights on Ryanair.

That's where you have it wrong, because you think of 'product' as the 'flight and the on board service', which is fairly old school really.
Flying is nothing but a commodity for us, yet the differentiator between a loCost and a network airline is in the flexibility and procedures of making use of that commodity.

Contrary to what you think there is no use in booking 3 different tickets on each of the 3 FR flights of that day, if I still need to go through their whole time consuming ( yet cheap) ground procedure prior to actually flying them. Provided there ever is a LoCost with high enough frequencies, it would be quite silly having to be at the airport at a time when the previous flight to the same destination would not even have left, don't you think?

Seriously, for a LoCost to be ever considered by us, they'd need all the usual tricks and games like any other airline, like fast lanes, lounges, open seats, reroutings, code share partners etc, at which point they'd have morphed pretty much into a network carrier themselves then....

[Flanker]

That's where you have it wrong, because you think of 'product' as the 'flight and the on board service', which is fairly old school really.
Flying is nothing but a commodity for us, yet the differentiator between a loCost and a network airline is in the flexibility and procedures of making use of that commodity.

Contrary to what you think there is no use in booking 3 different tickets on each of the 3 FR flights of that day, if I still need to go through their whole time consuming ( yet cheap) ground procedure prior to actually flying them. Provided there ever is a LoCost with high enough frequencies, it would be quite silly having to be at the airport at a time when the previous flight to the same destination would not even have left, don't you think?

Seriously, for a LoCost to be ever considered by us, they'd need all the usual tricks and games like any other airline, like fast lanes, lounges, open seats, reroutings, code share partners etc, at which point they'd have morphed pretty much into a network carrier themselves then....

Like I said, if you're a corporate frequent flyer, this doesn't apply to you because indeed, traditional airlines do everything in order to keep you. They sell you everything you don't need.

The Ryanair procedure is much faster and smoother. The airports they use like CRL are much more relaxed and you go from parking to gate in 10 minutes.
I don't get your it would be quite silly having to be at the airport at a time when the previous flight to the same destination would not even have left, don't you think?.

Security usually lets you in until 40 minutes before departure, depending on the airport up to 30 minutes before departure time. Boarding starts 15 minutes before departure time.
Fast lanes? Usually you don't have queues at security in CRL, why would you need a fast lane?
Open seats? I've had an open seat on 40% of my Ryanair flights.
Lounge? Don't really need it. Do you? What for? If you need a quiet area you can go to one of the last gate area's.
Codeshares? What would you need them for? To pay extra for miles? Miles are free? No my friend, miles are not free.

[airazurxtror]

Seriously, for a LoCost to be ever considered by us, they'd need all the usual tricks and games like any other airline, like fast lanes, lounges, open seats, reroutings, code share partners etc,.

If that is so, one can feel pretty sure that Ryanair will never be considered by Your Highness.
Thank heaven !

[Inquirer]

The Ryanair procedure is much faster and smoother.

At RYANAIR, Online check in closes 4 hours prior the flight....
We sometimes book ou flight less than 2 hours prior departure even!
But why always talk about Ryanair? The natural LoCost competitor for network airlines is in fact Easyjet.

why would you need a fast lane?

To make sure I don't have to leave my documents and laptop unattended for too long, maybe?

Lounge? Don't really need it. Do you? What for?

To work maybe? There's only so much you can do from a laptop, you know?

Codeshares? What would you need them for?

To be able to get to the most remote places on a single ticket the very same day and have hassle free connections al the time?

But I got it: we don't need anything of all that and loCosts can do it all much better....
Well, sadly you got it wrong, as at least 3 people have now come to tell you, but what do I know right?
I only spend about 35k on airline tickets annually just for myself!

And no airazurxtor, I do not think I am any better than anybody else because of it: it's simply required for my daily job yet it strikes me to see of you AGAIN misplaced arrogance towards an ordinary end user like me who happens to dare saying not to be in total love with RYANAIR or in fact any other LoCost for very practical reasons which I have respectfully stated. Given your personal insult towards me which I do not appreciate and consider extremely rude and misplaced in the context of this so far polite discussion, I will no longer contribute to this topic.
Enjoy your feeling of complete and outright superiority as RYANAIR staff is all I can say.
I do hope however to never come across anybody with such an attitude towards a customer on any of my flights, no matter which airline that will be. Thank you!

[fcw]

Shall we just call this what it is: a cost cutting measure!
Strange that the bussiness elite on this forum are happy to pay for a service they don't receive.

[eurojet]

Hi FWC,

how many times do we need to repeat it: we pay for schedule, schedule, schedule and flexibility, we give a rat's ass as to catering on short-haul flights in Y .. Yes, if it is a cost-cutting measure, it shows they have some smart people at SN, and I'd rather prefer they take away a hardly eadible snack than a well-timed flight to TXL or MAN in order to save costs. For those flying twice a year on discounted tickets, tough luck .. If you want a decent snack on short and medium-haul in Y, try Luxair but don't come crying over their ticket prices.

[SN539]

I was in Berlin a few days ago. I had a reservation for wednesday evening on Easy Jet flight back to Brussels. Due to a problem on railway network (bomb from WWII near railway station in Schönefeld ), we arrive at the check in exactly 32 min before departure time of the flight. We were of course not alone in this situation because many people were blocked in the trains between Berlin City and Schönefeld. But ... check in for Easy Jet flights closes officially 40 min before departure. So we were around 30 people (yes, you read it correctly, THIRTY !!) to be simply rejected from the flight and rebooked on the same flight 24 hours later ! With of course all the consequences : one more day in Berlin, costs for hotel, food ... and last but not least 60 EUR per person for Easy Jet for modification of the reservation ! Jackpot, guys !!
This is for me the real difference between an LCC and companies like SN or LH. Flexibility and customer mind attitude in case of problem ...or even politeness (Easy Jet staff in Berlin was particulary rude, even impolite... DDR nostalgics ? )Not a question of Doritos, sandwiches or other peanuts !!!
I'm certain that in the same situation the staff of a non LCC company like LH or SN would have tried by all the ways to help people (certainly for 30 people)to catch their flight. The reaction of Easy Jet was all the contrary : you're in the problems, perfect, we won't help you but we will try to suck you the maximum of money ...