Which future fighter jet for Belgian Defence?

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DIBO
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Re: Which future fighter jet for Belgian Defence?

Post by DIBO »

We're talking about fighters, so use the Rafale as an example of a very capable European product.
See what the Swiss had to say about it, some years ago (so older versions of all aircraft involved). And mind you, the Gripen C/D at half the price of the Eurofighter, was in some areas holding up very well compared to it. It would be nice to have an updated comparison with Gripen E/F, current versions of Rafale & Eurofighter, compared to F18 E/F.
And last but not least, see the Rafale beating the Raptor (most expensive fighter of the world and dedicated to air superiority) on several occasions. So Rafale against F35 would just be a joke :-)
NWA phase II evaluation 2009.png
NWA evaluation.png
Rafale beating Raptor.jpg

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sn26567
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Re: Which future fighter jet for Belgian Defence?

Post by sn26567 »

That looks as if it had been drafted by the marketing people of the Rafale. But that plane should indeed have its chances, now that the nuclear capabilities will account for only 1% of the total evaluation.
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Boavida
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Re: Which future fighter jet for Belgian Defence?

Post by Boavida »

Koltchak wrote: 17 Mar 2017, 18:24
Boavida wrote: 17 Mar 2017, 12:05(And let's be honest, the F-35 is the most advanced one)
You mean the most expensive to buy and operate, the less efficient, the one which will bring the least to the belgian economy and the one which is still far from being ready?

Yeah, definitely the most "advanced"... :roll:
Just compare the times when the different jets were designed. Lots of 'previous generation' designs. The Rafale for example was designed in the late 1970's(!).

So yes, the F-35 is the most advanced. It would be plain stupid for Belgium to buy a previous generation fighter in 2018. It's like buying a Nokia 3310 in a world of high tech smartphones.

Btw, at the time the F16 was the newest jet it was also expensive and had a lot of 'problems' in its early years. Outcome: we're still flying it today.

Koltchak
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Re: Which future fighter jet for Belgian Defence?

Post by Koltchak »

Boavida wrote: 22 Mar 2017, 22:31Just compare the times when the different jets were designed. Lots of 'previous generation' designs. The Rafale for example was designed in the late 1970's(!).

So yes, the F-35 is the most advanced. It would be plain stupid for Belgium to buy a previous generation fighter in 2018. It's like buying a Nokia 3310 in a world of high tech smartphones.

Btw, at the time the F16 was the newest jet it was also expensive and had a lot of 'problems' in its early years. Outcome: we're still flying it today.
The actual Rafale (the F3R standard is a far cry from the prototype which first flew in 1986... you should have a look at the programme history). The program itself has a robust development roadmap with the F4 standard having been approved and funded by the french governement a few days ago.

The BAF would be quite stupid indeed to buy a high tech smartphone which cannot even send a text message or made a call.

F-16 had problem at his times but he was - at least - able to perform the basic missions he was destined for. That's not the case for the F-35. But yeah definitely a "good choice" if made...

I wouldn't mind Belgium buying either one plane or another, but I can't accept that our state spends so much money on a plane (the F-35A to name it) which would bring clearly NOTHING to our air force. For an horrendous price and unable to perform basic duties. And I didn't even speak about the total lack of economic benefits for our national industries (oh yes, they're mainly based in Wallonia, maybe that's why...?) added to the doubts surrounding the program with the new POTUS.

The F-35A is - for the time being and at least in a close future - one massively expensive joke...

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sn26567
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Re: Which future fighter jet for Belgian Defence?

Post by sn26567 »

Koltchak wrote: 24 Mar 2017, 23:07 And I didn't even speak about the total lack of economic benefits for our national industries (oh yes, they're mainly based in Wallonia, maybe that's why...?) added to the doubts surrounding the program with the new POTUS.
Lockheed Martin thinks differently:

Lockheed Martin and the Belgian military and industry have a longstanding working relationship, partnering on programs such as the C-130 Hercules and F-16 Fighting Falcon since the 1970s.

Lockheed Martin continues to actively work with Belgian industry on expanding business opportunities. In 2015, Lockheed Martin signed a memorandum of understanding with Esterline Belgium, ILIAS Solutions, SABCA and SONACA, signifying a strong interest in exploring industrial cooperation opportunities in high-technology defense, aerospace, cyber and security sectors. More recently, Lockheed Martin signed a partnership agreement to implement ILIAS’ F-16 Mission Driven Logistics system more broadly across global the F-16 fleet.

Belgium’s participation in the F-35 program would provide many opportunities to pursue the next generation of industry partnerships in Belgium.


But, yeah, that's probably only a marketing push...

https://f35.com/global/participation/belgium
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Koltchak
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Re: Which future fighter jet for Belgian Defence?

Post by Koltchak »

sn26567 wrote: 25 Mar 2017, 16:31Lockheed Martin thinks differently:

Lockheed Martin and the Belgian military and industry have a longstanding working relationship, partnering on programs such as the C-130 Hercules and F-16 Fighting Falcon since the 1970s.

Lockheed Martin continues to actively work with Belgian industry on expanding business opportunities. In 2015, Lockheed Martin signed a memorandum of understanding with Esterline Belgium, ILIAS Solutions, SABCA and SONACA, signifying a strong interest in exploring industrial cooperation opportunities in high-technology defense, aerospace, cyber and security sectors. More recently, Lockheed Martin signed a partnership agreement to implement ILIAS’ F-16 Mission Driven Logistics system more broadly across global the F-16 fleet.

Belgium’s participation in the F-35 program would provide many opportunities to pursue the next generation of industry partnerships in Belgium.
"Strong interest in exploring industrial cooperation opportunities", with all due respect it basically means "we got nothing to propose". It's only wind and nothing else... In a recent article in the newspaper "l'Echo" the SABCA boss was quite clear about it: they don't expect anything in case the F-35 is choosen.

Shall I remember you that Dassault (not to name it) has already offered to build the planes in Belgium and to include Belgium in the Rafale's development roadmap.

Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but the production and logistics behind the F-35 are already well set up and Belgium "missed the train" while the Verhoofstadt Governement refuses to join the program. Dassault on the other hand is eager to add more countries in the Rafale program and to give benefits from joining it.

But yeah, politics before economy... ;)

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sn26567
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Re: Which future fighter jet for Belgian Defence?

Post by sn26567 »

Don't blame me: I'm only the messenger relaying the Lockheed message ;)

And I agree with you that the Rafale (a European product) carries probably a lot more economic compensations than the F-35. But EU regulations now prevent economic compensations to be taken into account in the decision process...
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Desert Rat
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Re: Which future fighter jet for Belgian Defence?

Post by Desert Rat »

Interresting news about the navy version.


https://uk.news.yahoo.com/us-navy-plans ... 00715.html

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sn26567
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Re: Which future fighter jet for Belgian Defence?

Post by sn26567 »

Desert Rat wrote: 29 Mar 2017, 10:01 Interresting news about the navy version.

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/us-navy-plans ... 00715.html
Interesting indeed, but since Belgium doesn't have any aircraft carrier, there is absolutely no chance that it will select the F-35C 😀
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cathay belgium
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Re: Which future fighter jet for Belgian Defence?

Post by cathay belgium »

Hi,

Nobody read the article about Putin's new zircon scramjet missile ?
NOT STOP-ABLE or if so much too late...

Aircraft-carriers days are over... I'm so sorry .... LOL
So thus are the big navy-ships...

CXB
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Magiktrix
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Re: Which future fighter jet for Belgian Defence?

Post by Magiktrix »

The Request for Government Proposal is available online

http://www.vandeput.fgov.be/sites/defau ... osal_0.pdf

Very interesting reading (247 pages) for any avgeek. Its the first time i see this kind of paper. The best part is the different scenarios. For sure the target is equipped with russian material.


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quixoticguide
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Re: Which future fighter jet for Belgian Defence?

Post by quixoticguide »

Magiktrix wrote: 29 Mar 2017, 22:02 The Request for Government Proposal is available online

http://www.vandeput.fgov.be/sites/defau ... osal_0.pdf

Very interesting reading (247 pages) for any avgeek. Its the first time i see this kind of paper. The best part is the different scenarios. For sure the target is equipped with russian material.
Indeed very interesting stuff
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Didymus
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Re: Which future fighter jet for Belgian Defence?

Post by Didymus »

The Saab JAS 39 Gripen E is no longer considered because Sweden can not deliver the asked for "extended operational support". As a result Sweden withdrew.

source: http://www.tijd.be/politiek-economie/be ... 16/9912510 (Dutch)

Boavida
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Re: Which future fighter jet for Belgian Defence?

Post by Boavida »

According to Lalibre.be, Dassault/Rafale has dropped out of the competition. So that leaves only the Eurofighter Typhoon and F-35.

I don't think the Belgian government is going to choose a previous generation jet (Eurofighter) and deal with London (certainly after Brexit), so the path is wide open for the F-35.

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lumumba
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Re: Which future fighter jet for Belgian Defence?

Post by lumumba »

Boavida wrote: 07 Sep 2017, 12:05 According to Lalibre.be, Dassault/Rafale has dropped out of the competition. So that leaves only the Eurofighter Typhoon and F-35.

I don't think the Belgian government is going to choose a previous generation jet (Eurofighter) and deal with London (certainly after Brexit), so the path is wide open for the F-35.
It's not onlusten British it's also German,Italianand and Spanish.....from there the name!
Hasta la victoria siempre.

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Re: Which future fighter jet for Belgian Defence?

Post by Boavida »

lumumba wrote: 07 Sep 2017, 12:41
Boavida wrote: 07 Sep 2017, 12:05 According to Lalibre.be, Dassault/Rafale has dropped out of the competition. So that leaves only the Eurofighter Typhoon and F-35.

I don't think the Belgian government is going to choose a previous generation jet (Eurofighter) and deal with London (certainly after Brexit), so the path is wide open for the F-35.
It's not onlusten British it's also German,Italianand and Spanish.....from there the name!
True, but Belgium is going to buy new jets via a government-to-government procedure (not government-to-company). So for the Eurofighter it goes via a British government agency in London.

The request was made to the following government agencies:

-- DGA (Directorate General of Armaments), France (Dassault Rafale)

-- FMV (Swedish Defense Material Administration), Sweden (Saab Gripen E)

-- JPO (Joint Program Office), United States (Lockheed-Martin F-35A)

-- UK MOD (UK Ministry of Defense), United Kingdom (Eurofighter Typhoon)

-- USN PMA 265 (US Navy Program Manager Air 265), United States (Boeing F-18 E / F)

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Re: Which future fighter jet for Belgian Defence?

Post by lumumba »

Boavida wrote: 07 Sep 2017, 13:09
lumumba wrote: 07 Sep 2017, 12:41
Boavida wrote: 07 Sep 2017, 12:05 According to Lalibre.be, Dassault/Rafale has dropped out of the competition. So that leaves only the Eurofighter Typhoon and F-35.

I don't think the Belgian government is going to choose a previous generation jet (Eurofighter) and deal with London (certainly after Brexit), so the path is wide open for the F-35.
It's not onlusten British it's also German,Italianand and Spanish.....from there the name!
True, but Belgium is going to buy new jets via a government-to-government procedure (not government-to-company). So for the Eurofighter it goes via a British government agency in London.

The request was made to the following government agencies:

-- DGA (Directorate General of Armaments), France (Dassault Rafale)

-- FMV (Swedish Defense Material Administration), Sweden (Saab Gripen E)

-- JPO (Joint Program Office), United States (Lockheed-Martin F-35A)

-- UK MOD (UK Ministry of Defense), United Kingdom (Eurofighter Typhoon)

-- USN PMA 265 (US Navy Program Manager Air 265), United States (Boeing F-18 E / F)
Ok thanks to make it clear.
Hasta la victoria siempre.

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lumumba
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Re: Which future fighter jet for Belgian Defence?

Post by lumumba »

Boavida wrote: 07 Sep 2017, 12:05 According to Lalibre.be, Dassault/Rafale has dropped out of the competition. So that leaves only the Eurofighter Typhoon and F-35.

I don't think the Belgian government is going to choose a previous generation jet (Eurofighter) and deal with London (certainly after Brexit), so the path is wide open for the F-35.
In Le Soir tonight Dassault is still in the running...
http://www.lesoir.be/112919/article/201 ... des-rafale
Hasta la victoria siempre.

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sn26567
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Re: Which future fighter jet for Belgian Defence?

Post by sn26567 »

Dassault is still in the running indeed, but with another type of contract, larger than a fighter jet alone: Dassault, or rather the French Government, wants to discuss with the Belgian Government about a contract encompassing fighter jets and other military equipment, involving Belgian industry. A way for them to circumvent the current request for which they are no longer interested.
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