Netherlands closer to accept JSF

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regi
Posts: 5140
Joined: 02 Sep 2004, 00:00
Location: Bruges

Netherlands closer to accept JSF

Post by regi »

The socialist party PVDA gave up resistance against the JSF.
(sorry, just in Dutch )
http://nos.nl/artikel/548242-pvda-met-w ... r-jsf.html

Is this the last hurdle to take?

regi
Posts: 5140
Joined: 02 Sep 2004, 00:00
Location: Bruges

Re: Netherlands closer to accept JSF

Post by regi »

game-set-match at last: they bought it.
http://www.telegraaf.nl/binnenland/2189 ... cht__.html

Let us count the years (hope I won't make a silly mistake again :oops: )
Start of replacement of F-16 : 2019.
Total replacement done the latest in 2023.

I think that the F-16 started its Dutch carreer in 1979.
2023 - 1979 = 44 years of duty. ( real duty will be shorter, first introduction, training and than phase out )
But let's say... 40 years?
So 2019 + 40 = 2059.

Isn't that boring, looking for 2 generations at the same airplane?

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earthman
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Location: AMS

Re: Netherlands closer to accept JSF

Post by earthman »

So they buy new planes but fire all the pilots due to budget cuts?

eurojet
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Location: Luxembourg

Re: Netherlands closer to accept JSF

Post by eurojet »

Interesting what it will mean to the BAF: this week the news that the B61 nukes will be upgraded .. I assume not to be hung under an antiquated F16A/MLU .... The Dutch buy 37 .. originally 85 foreseen ... Sub-leasing of F35 to BAF ...? Anyway, the Belgian governement, if they want to remain some type of reliable NATO partner, will need at a certain moment take a position ... And it took the Dutch 18 years to come to a political consensus ...

Flanker2
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Joined: 05 Dec 2012, 23:15

Re: Netherlands closer to accept JSF

Post by Flanker2 »

I think that the JSF is overkill for a small country like Belgium, especially from a budget perspective.
In fact, major NATO participation is a waste of money for a small country like Belgium.

However, Belgium can profit from technological, development and production technology transfer for its industry, jsut as it did with the Sabca F16's.

In my opinion there are 2 ways to save money. One way is to buy what everyone else is buying. This reduces resources for training and spare parts. The second way is to license-produce and get major workshare in a 5th generation program. This means that the money stays home and perhaps some export sales can bring even more money in.

One more detail, is that while some European countries will buy the F-35, they will all lack a true air superiority machine. They will all be vulnerable against advanced UAV's and larger 5th generation aircraft such as the F22, PAK FA, which are the vehicles of the future.

I think that Belgium can gain most by looking outside the box.
Given the long period of operation expected for the new aircraft, one has to consider that the threats of the future may be different than today's threats, strategically and politically. Hence it's not about who's your friend today, but who has the best machines and who is most willing to let you in on that game.

It's too late to get aboard of any of the Western 5th generation programs... so why not consider actually working with an open, active and promising 5th generation program, such as the PAK FA? In the future European countries will be forced to work together on a 5th generation program just as they did with the Eurofighter, so working on a 5th gen program beforehand could give Belgium a technological edge to lead such a program.

The Russians are eagerly looking for Western validation of its technology and having a partner in Europe could open more doors to exporting to countries such as Denmark, Norway, Switzerland, Portugal.
The timeline on the PAK FA and the budget considerations all speak in favor of this program.
Who wouldn't want to buy a F22 at half the price of a F35?

Japan and Korea as well as China and India are developing their own 5th generation multirole fighters.

It's also time to stop dividing the airforce into 10 smaller squadrons when you barely have any area to cover. One centrally located squadron and 2 strategically located smaller sub-squadrons would do fine when you have a air superiority 5th generation fighter.

One last consideration: The biggest role of the F16 in the BAF is as an interceptor, be it for commercial or military aircraft interceptions. The F35 is not a good interceptor, it's just too heavy and slow for that role.


This is a great post that gives a good summary:
I wouldn't say PakFa is more advanced or powerful than F35. Its a different aircraft with a different strategy.

Where F22 and F35 would try to use stealth as its advantage, they would be compromising on maneuverability and weapon capacity.

PakFa gives up a bit of its stealth characteristics to gain more maneuverability and weapon capacity. It has a powerful radar and focuses more on detecting the other aircraft and negating their stealth advantage.

PakFa won't be anywhere near the JSF in stealth but would be able to detect it at distances where JSF would still be unaware about PakFa's position.

Also radar can be fooled by using RAM coatings and stealth design but IR signature is something that is unavoidable. These machines are burning fuel at an unbelievable rate, which emits an IR signature that no amount of technology can hide today.

Russia is very good with its IRST and believes it would be the next alternative to radar and its true since radar would be the tool of the past with 6th gen planes.

An improved IRST would be very potent tool to locate aircraft like F35 in air. Also IR guided missiles are evolving rapidly, they are way more maneuverable, which increases the chance of a kill. Also latest IR missiles like ASRAAM can differentiate a flare from a plane. If Russia work out an intelligent missile like this, then its game over for F35.

The biggest problem with JSF is that its grossly underpowered. With a thrust to weight ratio of 0.84, its really a lazy plane. PakFa is supposed to be powered by two engines of 175KN of thrust. Even if it is powered by AL41F with 157 KN of thrust, its thrust to weight ratio comes to be 1.22. If 175KN engines are used it would be upped to 1.4 Now that is POWER.

Overall the game is very interesting. The two fighters use different strategies for combat and only a real fight would be able to answer all our questions. But today, I would like to put my money on the PakFa.
Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/indian-def ... z2fIB33fbQ


Last but not least, a super expensive single-engine platform is not ideal for any applications.
How many F16's has the BAF lost to engine failures? Is it acceptable that a 150 million machine could be destroyed by a single bird strike? :lol:
150 million = 15 euro's for each Belgian resident... that's an expensive chicken roast.



De Crem has to think further than his nose. The F35 is the easy solution, but by far the worst.

regi
Posts: 5140
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Location: Bruges

Re: Netherlands closer to accept JSF

Post by regi »

Belgian MoD De Crem doesn't think that the replacement of the F-16 will be Russian or Chinese.
http://www.standaard.be/cnt/dmf20130918_00748507
And the Walloon socialist party PS already denounces the F-35. Election time? Or have they received already their "benefits" from other parties ? This public disapproval can also be seen as an invitation to the lobbyists to come offer their sweets.

OK, that is Belgium. The subject was in fact about the Dutch program.
-reset- ;)

Flanker2
Posts: 1741
Joined: 05 Dec 2012, 23:15

Re: Netherlands closer to accept JSF

Post by Flanker2 »

It seems that he doesn't know what he's talking about. Using Chinese and Russian in the same sentence means that he thinks that these are at comparable levels.
Europe needs a force with air superiority.

Back in the days, the F-16 used to be a great contender, even against aircraft like the F-15, F-14, Mig29 and even SU27's.

But today, a F-35 wouldn't be any competition to a F-22 or PAK FA, let alone any advanced UAV's. In fact, I'm not sure that it could hold up against 4.5 gen aircraft in combat within visual range, let alone the Japanese 5th gen aircraft in development. If you want, the thing has brains and knows how to fight and is a great air-to-ground platform, but it just doesn't have the power you need in a good old-fashioned dogfight.
It's a lot of money for a sub-optimal aircraft.

To me the F-35 procurement shows which countries know what they're doing, and which ones are the puppy dogs of the U.S. and would buy anything they have to offer.

eurojet
Posts: 152
Joined: 26 Aug 2004, 00:00
Location: Luxembourg

Re: Netherlands closer to accept JSF

Post by eurojet »

the F35 is not just a weapon system on itself, it is part of a larger weapon network, being the US one, where you can "plug in". This applies to other systems as well. The Dutch military networks and weapon systems (Patriot, Apache, Chinook, their Navy vessels) are all "US compatible" and have "plug and play" functionalities with larger US systems. Belgian defense system are not fully, but are still better embedded than other NATO partners. The choice for the F35 means being embedded in the large US military networks. You can only partly achieve this with European systems. Additionally, cost sharing for the F35 further development is an important factor (with UK, Italy, NL, Norway, Turkey and Denmark) as well. Look at what EPAF achied for the F16 and its development into the MLU version used today. I foresee a limited purchase max 24-30 planes.

florri
Posts: 1
Joined: 01 Feb 2014, 06:33

Re: Netherlands closer to accept JSF

Post by florri »

43 A-1A/B now in proccess of modernization (MLU) by Embraer. First aircraft, designated A-1M, already delivered to Brazilian Air Force.
florri

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