Non ETOPS / ETOPS Destination Alternate

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PilotQ400
Posts: 2
Joined: 04 Dec 2021, 20:56

Non ETOPS / ETOPS Destination Alternate

Post by PilotQ400 »

Hi
New to this kind of forum, and I have a question that is bugging me.

In accordance with the attached image:
- A non approved ETOPS plane, flies from A to B, being C departure alternate and D destination alternate. E is just a suitable aerodrome, 60 min Single engine distance from B, and about twice that from A.
- For planning, can I consider A as destination alternate?
- In flight, as starting the approach, both B and D are closed (either weather related or other) can A still be destiation alternate?

If possible, can the answer come with the basis for it,i.e., where is it written or what lead you to the answer.

Thank you guys
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PilotQ400
Posts: 2
Joined: 04 Dec 2021, 20:56

Re: Non ETOPS / ETOPS Destination Alternate

Post by PilotQ400 »

Hi all. There's been 839 views, no answer so I ask: Is the question to confusing or the picture doesn't show what I intend too? If so, please ask away, I'll try to explain the best I can, but I really like to see a well grounded answer.
Thank you all

Poiu
Posts: 897
Joined: 14 Nov 2015, 09:38

Re: Non ETOPS / ETOPS Destination Alternate

Post by Poiu »

This is mainly a fan and spotters forum, so you won’t get many answers to your question.

It looks as if you’re a bit confused or looking to deep into things.
Your departure A is just an airport like B,C,D, E, ... and can be considered as an alternate at any time before and during your flight, provided fuel and weather requirements are fulfilled.
Why do you mention a departure alternate in your question? You only need one if the weather at A makes a return to A impossible, in which case A is probably not suitable as an alternate and your question doesn’t really make sense anymore.

SFM
Posts: 128
Joined: 11 Jan 2013, 17:21

Re: Non ETOPS / ETOPS Destination Alternate

Post by SFM »

If you want a source for this: https://www.easa.europa.eu/downloads/18231/en

This is a pdf with the AMC (Acceptable Means of Compliance) of Part-CAT (Commercial Air Transport).
The answer to your first question is on p. 119 of this pdf:
“GM1 CAT.OP.MPA.150(c)(3)(ii) Fuel policy
DESTINATION ALTERNATE AERODROME
The departure aerodrome may be selected as the destination alternate aerodrome.”

So yes, you can use A as your destination alternate. In practice, this can happen on very short flights. E.g. an SN flight BRU-CDG might select BRU as the destination alternate. On longer flights, this will be less likely as your alternate fuel will be higher. Fuel-economy wise it’s interesting then to select a destination alternate closer to your destination (less alternate fuel required), but of course you have to keep in mind that if your destination is affected by bad weather (thunderstorms, fog…), a nearby alternate may be affected as well. It may then be good airmanship to select an alternate further away, requiring more alternate fuel.

Once in flight, it’s up to the crew to decide what to do (continue to destination, divert to the planned destination alternate, divert to another aerodrome, return to the departure aerodrome) taking into account weather, fuel on board, runway closures, aircraft technical problems, available support on the ground (technical or passenger-wise), etc. If upon reaching your destination B, you find out it’s closed, and your planned destination alternate D is closed as well, you have a bad day. If you still have sufficient fuel (i.e. you took extra fuel on top of the minimum required), you can return to the departure aerodrome A, but there may be other options closer by (aerodrome E perhaps?).

And, as Poiu says, a departure alternate C is only required if weather or other reasons (e.g. performance) would prevent you from returning to the departure aerodrome A after take-off (see p. 70 of the pdf, AMC1 CAT.OP.MPA.110 Aerodrome operating minima point (a)(2)). Then again, if like in the above scenario, during approach at B, you find out B and D are closed, and in the mean time weather at A has improved, you can (depending on fuel on board) decide to return to A.

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