Mid Air Refueling

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tsv
Posts: 220
Joined: 08 Jan 2007, 12:17

Mid Air Refueling

Post by tsv »

Will Airliners ever be refuelled in Mid-Air?

Potentially this could add a lot of range and also reduce costs be negating the need to carry as much fuel which obviously requires more fuel.

Presumably the major problems are the amount of fuel required to refuel and Airliner and the safety of the refueling operation.

Regarding the safety I haven't heard of any incidents refueling Fighter Jets. Have there been any?

Homo Aeroportus
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Joined: 24 Feb 2007, 18:28
Location: 2300NM due South of North Pole

Re: Mid Air Refueling

Post by Homo Aeroportus »

It has all the appearance of a bad good idea.

Doesn't happen daily but you have plenty of air to air refuelling accidents in the military. Up to losing a B52 with its N-bombs off the coasts of Spain and later forcing a US ambassador for swim to prove it was safe.
:mrgreen:

Taking off with less fuel will reduce the fuel burn of the airliner indeed but ... the tanker needs to bring up the complement.
I doubt it could be justified economically, or maybe if the tanker is based at a station en-route close to the airliner flight path so as to reduce its own flight?
An A330MRTT can bring you about 60-80 tons at short range so saying you'd want to top up an A330 airliner with about half a tank, that's about 40-50 t which means the tanker can't serve more than one airliner before RTB for refuel.

I know that the guys of the 100th ARW sometime scramble a KC-135 just to meet a single fighter in the northern Atlantic before it reaches bingo fuel but this is mil ops and it brings the ton of JP-4 to a cost probably higher than the pilot's annual income. :(

Fuel from air refuelling is the most terribly expensive fuel you can get.
Except for the Solar Impulse !
:D

Also I don't know how much Airbus would charge for installation of an in-flight fuel receptacle on top of the cockpit with its associated plumbing to the tanks.
OK, you can disconnect the TCAS and you have a number of former mil pilots who could do this without sweat hands but I'm not sure an airline will take the risk.

But hey, quiet Sunday so why not entertaining the idea. Anyone to challenge the above?

H.A.
How much would the insurance cost?

tsv
Posts: 220
Joined: 08 Jan 2007, 12:17

Re: Mid Air Refueling

Post by tsv »

Yeah I agree that the Airlines will not rush into this for the reasons you have mentioned.

But I also think it will eventually happen. And certainly I am talking about Tankers stationed mid-point on long routes. Specifically about 6 Stations around the world strategically located.

For example Qantas is apparently considering starting Sydney-Chicago. They think the market is sufficient and their Partner, AA have a good hub there to provide connections. Problem is the payload-range equations stink. They have to take off will a full fuel load and carry it all the way. Westbound flights will be so restricted they will carry virtually no Cargo. Adverse winds will result in diversions. So starting the route is a risky venture, without the ability to take a full payload there is no guarantee it will be sustainable.

But if they could refuel from a Tanker based in Hawaii the equation could change. No need to depart with a full tank so huge immediate fuel savings. Full payload available in both directions so increased revenue. No diversions. These savings should pay for the Tanker, especially if the Tanker was shared between numerous similar flights.

Flag Carriers will not want to jump into mid air refuelling, it's too radical. But low cost Carriers might, they carry young people who are very price sensitive and risk willing. Offer them a $1000 fare with a mid air refuel or a $2000 fare without and they will take the first option. Even if it voids their Life Insurance Policy!

Which will eventually open the door for the Flag Carriers as well. IMO this innovation is bound to happen sooner or later.

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KriVa
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Re: Mid Air Refueling

Post by KriVa »

I don't think it will happen anytime soon. The risk vs. reward just isn't worth it.
Even though you don't hear that much about it, incidents with tankers happen fairly often. Which is rather logical, since you're bringing to aircraft very, very close together.

It would also be an extremely expensive option, since one tanker would probably only be able to supply one aircraft. An F-18 or an F-16 doesn't burn that much fuel, when compared to airliners. If/when aircraft like a VC-25 or an E-4B has to refuel, all the fuel in the tanker usually goes to the aircraft being refuelled. Sometimes multiple hook-ups are required during a single flight. This would translate to the civilian world as well, since you'd be transferring large volumes for long-range flights, making the tanker only usable for one or two flights before it would have to go back to base.

Don't forget, airlines/manufacturers are trying to nibble away at every single gramme they can in an aircraft. The equipment needed to refuel an aircraft, together with the hosing, and training, won't be light or cheap. In essence, you're losing payload capability for a very small benefit. Most refuels in the military world are done to accomplish ferry flights, or to have an aircraft aloft for a long time.

On top of that, I don't think you'll find many insurance companies or Civil Aviation Authorities who would be willing to extend their support for this idea. Military aircraft tend to be exempt from a lot of rules, which means they can have some fun with equipment that can't be used in the civilian world. There's a reason for that.

In my view, airlines are still better off to have a stop somewhere half way, where they can unload and load some pax and cargo. This provides extra income, without the downside of having the extra weight and cost of the air-refuelling. There are other ways for airlines to cut costs and generate some extra income. I don't think this is one of them. Especially not considering the niche market (Ultra Long Haul) it would be useful for.
Thomas

jan_olieslagers
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Re: Mid Air Refueling

Post by jan_olieslagers »

Could someone offer some figures instead of offering opinions? Let me think: a simple spreadsheet with as prime variables the altitude of the fuel transfer, the amount of fuel transferred, the fuel burn of the tanker, so that the cost of the fuel transfer as such can be assessed. Then the actual flight, in two variants: with an intermediate stop, or with inflight refuelling. Again, make the main factors (total distance, payload under various schemes, fuel cost) variables. Then check under which conditions which formula is most advantageous. Perhaps create some graphs.
With the amount of expertise around here, it shouldn't be that hard! (ducks for cover)

regi
Posts: 5140
Joined: 02 Sep 2004, 00:00
Location: Bruges

Re: Mid Air Refueling

Post by regi »

developments are still going on, on aeroplanes that could be used for civilian market as well.
http://www.cobham.com/mission-systems/a ... rd-kc-390/

CaravanDriver
Posts: 9
Joined: 14 Nov 2014, 18:46

Re: Mid Air Refueling

Post by CaravanDriver »

Please wake up, transporting fuel cost money. Do you really think that bringing the feul up in the air is cheaper then landing and refuelling first. On top don't forget the maximum working time of pilots, even with double crewing.

smokejumper
Posts: 1033
Joined: 21 Oct 2005, 00:00
Location: Northern Virginia USA

Re: Mid Air Refueling

Post by smokejumper »

Who wants to pay for a second (refueling) aircraft with it's fuel load and crew, as well as face the hazard of inflight-refueling. Today's long range aircraft are efficient and have the range to fly to distant destinations.

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