Are noise complainers "fussy" ?

[airazurxtror]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/news ... ember.html


Qatar Airways chief executive Akbar Al Baker, who is also on the board of Heathrow, said European airports should open 24 hours a day if they want to compete with the emerging Gulf hubs in Dubai and Doha, which are claiming a growing slice of international passenger traffic.

Al Baker said European airlines are unable to grow as quickly as Gulf carriers due to the restrictions placed on them around night flights. Residents in the Gulf “are not making so much fuss” about aircraft noise as they do in Europe, he said, allowing carriers such as Qatar to make better use of their aircraft.

“If you live under the flight path of an aeroplane, I assure you that over a period of time you wouldn’t even hear the aircraft passing over your house,” he said.

“In addition to that, today’s aeroplanes are so efficient vis-à-vis the noise emissions that as soon as the aeroplane is out of the airport perimeter you would hardly hear them.”

In relation to Britain’s long-running debate over where to build new runways, Al Baker said national interests should be taken into account, not just residents’ gripes about noise levels.

“I know that people require freedom but I think this is too excessive,” he said. “Sometimes national interests must be considered also. If you don’t increase the airport size at Heathrow or Gatwick you will be overtaken by other airports which will then connect to your country by high-speed train,” he said, implying Heathrow will lose further business to rival European hub airports such as Paris and Frankfurt.

Al Baker is well known in the airline industry for his forthright comments.

[b720]

He has a point; however he should not have compared to folks in his region living near airports.
One needs to live in a sealed (air conditioned) environment area of the Persian Gulf, and that for at least 10 months a year. . Can't hear anything through the hum of the coolers and A/C.

[sn26567]

It's easy to have an airport open 7/7 days 24/24 hours when it is in the middle of the desert. But people around airports in Europe also need some sleep at night....

[b720]

DXB is in almost in the city centre.

[gumblebee]

Just for amusement, I tried to get an of magnitude estimate of expenses to soundproof and provide AC for all affected homes (the numbers I use might be applicable for maybe for Brussels).

I estimate about 250.000 homes are affected (50% of houses and appartments in the Brussels Capital Region plus surrounding areas). I also estimate it would cost 40.000€ per home for replacing all windows, install forced ventilation and AC. This gives a total cost of close to 10 billion €.

My first guess was that the extra electricity consumption would be prohibitive, but it's quite reasonable. I arrive at an annual cost per home of about 100€. The extra AC would need about 200MW new peak generating capacity. I think the biggest problem might be reinforcing the electric transmission network.

[Acid-drop]

It's an amazing communication for LGG.
24/7 + high speed train -> LGG.
We know qatar has been interested by TNT and LGG recently so is this PR just a warning to LHR and others ?

[teddybAIR]

“I know that people require freedom but I think this is too excessive,” he said

1) I think as a board member at Heathrow he has the interests of Heathrow in mind and not "national interests" under which he tries to sell is ideas
2) Freedom and civil rights are the fundamental cornerstones of Western society and if that doesn't please Al Baker he is free to either try his luck in the Middle East or find a democratic majority that will support his vision. That shouldn't be to hard given the fact that he acts in "national interest", should it?

[b720]

What about those living almost on rail tracks? ever heard cargo trains thundering through the night? Not 1 train per night, numerous.. let alone the dense traffic during the day..
And those living close to the motorway? What about a night club opening in your building and music
blares out every night till 3?? night revelers drunk and noisy outside the door for hours?

[cnc]

the sound of modern aircraft isn't that disturbing anyway. atleast not to prevent you from sleeping.
people complaining should be forced to move away from the airport, shut up or be put to sleep permanently

[Stij]

As I wrote already on a different topic:

I live in Aarschot, next to one of the major freight line in Belgium (Antwerp - Luxemburg AND Zeebrugge - Germany).
Yes, there's a lot of noise, no I don't complain. The railway was there first.

Planes in approach to Brussels fly over the apartment as well and they have been for decades. When I was a kid you KNEW when Aunty Agatha was coming back from New York and even more at night when DHL's 727's were coming in. Now, you hardly notice...

There're less planes and they're less noisy.

Question: Why weren't there major complaints before watermelon (Green on the outside, red on the inside) Durant changed it all?

But saying things are wrong is easy! So I have a suggestion for our dear politicians:

I did a little research on the wind distribution and the number of take-offs in 2013.
On average their should have been 297 take-offs per day in BRU in 2013.
When you always use the best runway for the actual wind you get the following distribution:

25: 37%
19: 29%
07: 19%
01: 15%

In number of flights:

25: 111
19: 85
07: 58
01: 44

Now we create routes per runway

25: 10 routes : from course 16 to 34, so every 20 degrees a route
19: 8 routes: from course 10 to 24, so every 20 degrees a route, but less to the West to avoid overlap.
07: 10 routes : from course 34 to 16, so every 20 degrees a route
01: 10 routes : from course 24 to 10, so every 20 degrees a route

Every route would be flown on average, daily:

25: 11,1
19: 10,6
07: 5,8
01: 4,4

I think these would be acceptable levels and because the best runway is always used, also the safest.

One issue: is it possible to land on 25R and take-off on 19 without loosing capacity?

Cheers,

Stij

[Flanker2]

I stayed at hotels in Diegem, in the airport village.
Most hotels there are equipped with triple glass and all I played for an afternoon instead of taking my planned nap is guessing whether it was a A320 or a B737. I became very good at it.
Those planes are already several thousand feet high, yet you can hear their fans screaming the shit out of the air very well. I compared it to flushing the toilet and the aircraft noise was not louder but much more annoying.

It must be hell to live in Diegem, yet you can't blame the airport if you bought your house after the noise was already there. Same when you buy a house close to railways.

In Steenokkerzeel, the overflying aircraft are ok, but you can feel the ground vibrate when a heavy aircraft takes-off or comes in with full reverse. It doesn't help to live at the Eastern end of the village. It must be hell when those SN A330's come in to land in the early morning hours.

Sorry but you can't get used to that level of noise.
As animals, our survival instinct preserves a certain level of cognition during sleep and the noise and vibration threshold is definitely higher than you can shut off completely.

And those Avro's... they're quiet in the air but on the ground, they scream pretty hard and it's very high pitch. I can distinguish one from a mile away.

Why don't they make Rwy 25L suitable for departures? The aircraft would be much higher before reaching the densely populated area's, it would bother Steenokkerzeel much less. Ok, it's a slightly longer taxi and I don't know wether the tunnel is long enough to accommodate a taxiway to the threshold, but you can gain 500-1000ft more at the same datum point, you don't bother Diegem and Machelen anymore even if Zaventem will suffer about the same as the aircraft pass higher but closer.

They can then climb along the A201 and by the time they reach Evere, they're well above 5000ft.
They can turn West-Northwest and continue over the king's palace for all I care.

It seems quite simple to me.

[Atco EBBR]

I think these would be acceptable levels and because the best runway is always used, also the safest.

One issue: is it possible to land on 25R and take-off on 19 without loosing capacity?

Cheers,

Stij

Hi Stij,

Unfortunately, you would loose capacity using 25R/19. The problem is that arrivals on 25R cannot be done independently from departurtes on 19. That's because most departures will need to line-up from B1, and while they are doing the line-up, they interfere with 25R. So in practice, you can't give line-up if there is an arrival shorter than 2nm final. If there are a lot of arrivals, there will be 3 - 4 nm spacing in between the arrivals. So the problem will become getting the aircraft on the runway.

Another thing to take into account when using this configuration is jet blast. You don't want a 747 opening the throttle just as an avro passes behind. As it is hard to know when exactly the aircraft will start moving once the take-off clearance has been given, as a rule of thumb, we don't give take-off on 19 with an arrival on 25R inside 2nm.

25R/19 is not a bad configuration, but imo only suitable in low to medium traffic...

They can then climb along the A201 and by the time they reach Evere, they're well above 5000ft.

A departure from 25L well above 5000ft at Evere? Possible, if it's a rocket-like business jet. But for everything else between 2000ft and 3500ft seems more plausible to me...

[b720]

This is an airport. The Int. airport of the capital city of Belgium, that happens to host thousands of Int. companies, the EU, NATO and more. add the millions who live in the area.We all agree that the city needs an airport. This airport has been in place since 1958. How many of those complaining of the noise moved in the area because properties are relatively cheap? One can't have their cake and eat, or can they? All this discussion is a waste of time. 1 options, no other: close down the airport. The location will make a fantastic quiet gated community. People in the BRU region and beyond can take the train to CDG, FRA, or AMS. Problem solved.

[teddybAIR]

This is an airport. The Int. airport of the capital city of Belgium, that happens to host thousands of Int. companies, the EU, NATO and more. add the millions who live in the area.We all agree that the city needs an airport. This airport has been in place since 1958. How many of those complaining of the noise moved in the area because properties are relatively cheap? One can't have their cake and eat, or can they? All this discussion is a waste of time. 1 options, no other: close down the airport. The location will make a fantastic quiet gated community. People in the BRU region and beyond can take the train to CDG, FRA, or AMS. Problem solved.

I live in the area and never complain about the noise. I got used to it. But I just want to get one urban myth out of the way: please stop referring to so-called cheap properties near the airport. As a matter of fact, most of the communes in the direct vicinity of the airport display among the highest property prices you see in Belgium. just have a look on fod economie. For the rest I agree with your statement: if you live near an airport, you have to accept the airplanes over your head.

[Stij]

@ ATCO EBBR,

Thank-you very much for your feedback!!!

If there would be runway access on the other side of 19, across from B1, would this solve the line-up problem?
It could solve the congestion on Inner and Outer 6 and 7 during peak moments as well.
Downside is the constant crossing of 19.

The jetblast would not be solved, that's for sure...

Cheers,

Stij

[Atco EBBR]

If you mean, to line-up via W41, that wouldn't solve the problem (on the contrary even, a line-up from W41 takes more time and is longer on 25R than one from B1). Maybe if they built a new entry taxiway which maximises the TORA (take-off run available) while at the same time remaining at a safe distance from 25R... But I doubt BIAC/BAC/whatever they like to call themselves today would want to make that investment...

Imo, the best system for BRU would be:
- 25L/R up to a tailwind of 3 - 7 kts, gusts included (to be determined in dialogue between operators, Belgocontrol, BAC, DGLV),
- if that's not possible: 07L/R, with an ILS on 07L (or R, I don't mind), and, for the future, an MLS on 07R (or L) that allows SIMDEP/INDEP procedures on 07L/R (don't know if this is possible),
- if that's not possible: 01/07,
- if that's not possible: 19/25R or 25R/19,
- if all else fails: 19 or 01 single RWY.

Btw, I must say that I like Stij's idea of departure tracks every 20°. That would make life much easier for us. But I think the main thing to do is to decide for once and for all: concentration or dispersion? And then start from there...

[Stij]

Hi Atco EBBR,

Indeed, my idea was to create an extra taxiway, the investment can't be that big for a couple of hundred meters.

Thanks for the compliment!

And now, let's pack our bags, check in and fly from Brussels to Cairo this afternoon for a wedding. I hope the elections there aren't causing to much trouble...

And no ATC trouble please!

Stij

[regi]

I am a bit leazy to check the websites, but I am sure that in the recent past, there have been made several reliable international studies about the negative impact of airport related noise on people their health.
To make it simple: people who have a disturbed sleep have a shorter life expectancy.
( see also studies about people who work in a 3 shift rotating system )

Some people around airports don't get disturbed at all by the noise.
But what with people who have been born there, or moved at the age they had no decision power?
Putting those people at rest as CNC put it is a bit one sided

In general: I assume that most members here share the idea that it is not bad at all to decrease the negative impact of an airport on people their health? And than I am not talking about the children of that female politician who dislikes the aircrafts now because her children need to study for final exams...

[flightlover]

I am a bit leazy to check the websites, but I am sure that in the recent past, there have been made several reliable international studies about the negative impact of airport related noise on people their health.
To make it simple: people who have a disturbed sleep have a shorter life expectancy.
( see also studies about people who work in a 3 shift rotating system )

Some people around airports don't get disturbed at all by the noise.
But what with people who have been born there, or moved at the age they had no decision power?
Putting those people at rest as CNC put it is a bit one sided

In general: I assume that most members here share the idea that it is not bad at all to decrease the negative impact of an airport on people their health? And than I am not talking about the children of that female politician who dislikes the aircrafts now because her children need to study for final exams...

In case someone has no deciding power due to his/her age these decisions are to be made by the legal gardian. In most cases this means the parents. So, I'd say: bad luck for those kids if their parents have chosen to go and live there. If the parents complain about 'too much noise for their kids' due to an airport, that is there before they bought their house, i'lld say, think twice before you go and live there.

So no 'those kids didn't choose to live there' because the choice has been made for them by their (stupid??) legal gardians. (Anyone that doesn't knows that big planes make lots of noise???)

[regi]

But small children grow up and become adults at the age of 18 and express themselves in the voting cabinet.
And when such a grown up child inherites a house and becomes the owner and lives there, he has every right to complain.

Yes, large ( and small ) airplanes make noise.
But instead of looking at the noise problem as a aviation harasment, it could be considered as a positive challenge: imagine we provide a combination of solutions so that more people can live closer around airports, because the noise level is acceptable.
( hey, I am no politician , despite it sounds like that )

Example:
I consider it unacceptable that people who live 21 km straight line from the airport are interrupted every so many minutes by thundering airplanes. Those people never had that problem in mind when they built there house in that communtiy of ...Antwerp province !!!