ATC conversation

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MD-11
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ATC conversation

Post by MD-11 »

Sometimes I hear pilots, talking with BRU arrivals, ( towards RWY25L ) saying : "3000 feet, grennich (phonetic) one zero one six. (or do the mean Greenwich? It sounds like grennich ). Is it a callsign or what could it be? I think I also heard "grennich one zero one seven"
When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there you will always long to return."

flip330
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Re: ATC conversation

Post by flip330 »

They say QNH ( QUEEWANAIICH) which is the barometric pressure adjusted to sea level :)

jan_olieslagers
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Re: ATC conversation

Post by jan_olieslagers »

...and the relevance is: pilots must set the given value in their altimeters, these are in fact modified barometers.

If you want to train decoding this, you can tune EBBR ATIS at 132,475 MHz, which continuously broadcasts something like

EBBR ARR ATIS C 1922Z
EBBR NAT,
EXP VECTORING FOR ILS APPROACH ARR RWY25L
RSCD RWY25L WET DEP RWY25R TRL FL050 EAST PART TWY S CLSD. CL LIGHTS TWY S AND TWY R3 U/S
230/19KT VIS ABV 10KM FEW2300FT BKN3200FT
T10 DP6 QNH 1015HPA
TEMPO 230 18KT MAX30
CONFIRM ARR C

A full explanation and discussion can be found at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatic_ ... on_Service , among many other places.

PS allow me to remind you that it is by law forbidden to listen to ATC in Belgium - though I know of only one case of actual prosecution. My personal recommendation: if you must do it, do it in discretion, and don't tell all the world. You just never know.

EBAW
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Re: ATC conversation

Post by EBAW »

Hi jan, i have the live atc app on my ipod. i always listen to the brussels radar. is this an illegal app?

PS allow me to remind you that it is by law forbidden to listen to ATC in Belgium - though I know of only one case of actual prosecution. My personal recommendation: if you must do it, do it in discretion, and don't tell all the world. You just never know.

Typical Belgium!

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Re: ATC conversation

Post by jan_olieslagers »

First of all: this is not as typically Belgian as you might think (though I recognise the feeling!), AFAIK the exact same legal situation exists in the UK.

Whether your expensive toy or its software are illegal, I am not qualified to say, but I think they might be: any tool or equipment or tool used for illegal action can be seized by authorities. But again, as long as you keep your mouth shut nobody can ever know.

BTW I do not really think you listen to the radar, or you should have some very particular twist in your brain. Most people would very soon get rid of the periodical blips.

But I do wonder if our justice might not one day act upon whoever captures ATC conversations, and publishes them on the www. They would certainly have law at their side, but one can imagine and indeed hope that their priorities are elsewhere.

teddybAIR
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Re: ATC conversation

Post by teddybAIR »

Interesting discussion!

As a pilot, you need to obtain a Radiotelephone Operator's Certificate (aircraft stations) that allows you to operate the onboard radio's of aircraft. However, I must admit I am not familiar with the exact limitations of the certificate. I'll inform myself on the website of the BIPT and post anything relevant in the forum.

If anyone knows another relevant information source: feel free to share!

EBAW
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Re: ATC conversation

Post by EBAW »

And now in dutch? :lol:

teddybAIR
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Re: ATC conversation

Post by teddybAIR »

If you are really interested, this is where you can find the 'Standpunt van het BIPT inzake scanners'. So EBAW: your wish is our command...it's in dutch ;)

In short: If your scanner allows you to:
> read/demodulate the content of a certain frequency and
> can do this outside the 'authorised frequency bands'

Then they can simply seize your scanner provided that they catch you while listening out a non-authorised frequency band without the authorisation of the 'frequency owner'.

It means that your scanner is not necessarily illegal, but the actions you perform with it (listening out police, private, aviation,... frequency bands) are potentially illegal. So if they see/hear you listening out a protected frequency, they can seize your scanner.

SpottairBRU
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Re: ATC conversation

Post by SpottairBRU »

3 years ago, I had a mail exchange with the BIPT concerning the ownership of a radio scanner and listening to ATC. I digged in my archives, and found the BIPT answer:
BIPT wrote:Monsieur,

La détention et l’utilisation de scanners est libre d’autorisation en Belgique cependant seules les fréquences publiques peuvent être écoutées (radiodiffusion, CB et radioamateurs).

L’écoute des autres fréquences (dont celles utilisées en aéronautique) est interdite en application de l’article 41 de la loi du 13 juin 2005.

La détention d’un scanner programmé sur ces fréquences peut entraîné la saisie immédiate de celui-ci (article 147 de la loi du 13 juin 2005) et son détenteur peut être condamné aux peine et amendes prévues à l’article 145 de la loi du 13 juin 2005.

Il n’existe pas de réglementation européenne à ce sujet, chaque état membre peut fixer ses propres conditions d’écoute.

Sincères salutations
In summary, for those not understanding French:
- Owning a scanner is legal
- using it is legal if you listen to public frequencies (eg: radio stations, CB, ...)
- for other frequencies (among them ATC), it is illegal
- owning a scanner programmed on the ATC (or other forbidden) frequencies is illegal, and the device can be confiscated. Its owner can be sent to jail and/or have to pay some fines.
- there is no EU rule on that matter, each Member State can fix its own rules.
Fabien
Flown: AA5 / A300-310-318-319-320-321-330-340-380 / ATR42 / B717-737-747-757-777 / Bae146 / C130H / CRJ700-900 / Dash8-Q400 / E145-195 / Fokker 50 / HS748 / MD81 / RJ85-100 / Robin DR400

EBAW
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Re: ATC conversation

Post by EBAW »

Really interesting topic! In The Netherlands there is no problem to use a scanner, when you listening in Schiphol to the ATC, the police stand next to you and there is nothing going on...

Maybe we can start also a new topic....spotting terrace in Brussels? (schiphol,frankfurt,...) -> without glass!

teddybAIR
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Re: ATC conversation

Post by teddybAIR »

On topic:

QNH = the barometric pressure as measured at a certain location (ex: EBBR), adjusted to sea level according to the parameters of the International Standard Atmosphere.

To a pilot who sets his altimeter on the correct QNH at that specific time at that specific aerodrome/location, the altimeter will provide:
> in flight: the altitude of the aircraft. That is the vertical position above mean sea level
> at the aerodrome: the elevation of the aerodrome

Sabena320
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Re: ATC conversation

Post by Sabena320 »

Then it's the same as in the UK. I was once stopped at security screening in the new T5 at LHR in 2008. There was some sunscreen in my hand luggage I forgot to took out and they started searching my bag. They found my aerodrome charts of LHR, all the ATC frequencies, all my logs of air traffic of the last 3 days, photo camera with airport shots on it, safety cards and also my scanner. They found it all very suspicious so they called the police. Took me half an hour, and they also dealt with the scanner issue. They said they can't make anything of it as possession was not illegal, but as soon as I would turn it on an ATC frequency, it would be illegal. Anyway, they could not laugh with all the things I had in my bag...

teddybAIR
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Re: ATC conversation

Post by teddybAIR »

Sabena320 wrote:they could not laugh with all the things I had in my bag...
You have to admit that the list you mention there is quite impessive and kinda matches what a candidate terrorist would carry on a preparatory field trip :D

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sn26567
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Re: ATC conversation

Post by sn26567 »

What is the situation for smartphone apps that automatically connect you the ATC frequencies for major airports in the world? They are not really scanners, but allow you to listen to ATC conversations. I have on my own smartphone LiveATC for Android, and besides EBBU I like to listen to KJFK Tower and KJFK Delivery.

You can also listen to all these frequencies at home on your computer at LiveATC.net
André
ex Sabena #26567

teddybAIR
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Re: ATC conversation

Post by teddybAIR »

sn26567 wrote:What is the situation for smartphone apps that automatically connect you the ATC frequencies for major airports in the world? They are not really scanners, but allow you to listen to ATC conversations. I have on my own smartphone LiveATC for Android, and besides EBBU I like to listen to KJFK Tower and KJFK Delivery.
I'm guessing it is the same, although the regulation I found was specifically applicable to 'scanners'. So to answer your question, you would need to know whether a smartphone with such an app is considered a scanner.
But in the long term, they will probably adapt regulations to the reality and include smartphones, tablets, etc. in the definition of 'scanners' anyway.

jan_olieslagers
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Re: ATC conversation

Post by jan_olieslagers »

Anyone knows the purport of this
loi du 13 juin 2005.
? I was always told, but never bothered to actually check, that Belgian law AND Belgian justice interpret listening to ATC as "gaining access to information of which one is not the intended destinatary" or such; putting it on equal terms with opening a letter not addressed to one's self - "schending van het briefgeheim" in Dutch.

Without being a lawyer, it seems clear to me that whatever objections Belgian justice has against use of a scanner will also apply to consulting the conversations over the internet or through any other medium.

I just checked my R/T operator's license, it explicitly states that I am bound by the obligation of secrecy of information.

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MD-11
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Re: ATC conversation

Post by MD-11 »

Thanks for the replies... A colleague of mine ( who has a ppl and is instructor as well ) told me it's not forbidden to listen to conversations that are "in the air" and aren't coded... :?
When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there you will always long to return."

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Re: ATC conversation

Post by jan_olieslagers »

Then ask him to explain how the Ostend MP and WILOO member got convicted for publishing details of ATC conversations he had noted down, and made public. (I think it was on the wiloo website, can't be sure though. Must be some 10 years ago or so, perhaps even 20).

cnc
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Re: ATC conversation

Post by cnc »

why would anyone have a need to listen to ATCO/pilot conversations anyway?

tangolima
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Re: ATC conversation

Post by tangolima »

cnc wrote:why would anyone have a need to listen to ATCO/pilot conversations anyway?
Hello

- To find out on which runway the aircraft will land/or depart from.
- ATC/Pilot conversations are also used for persons who want to become ATC. So it are their "study books".

Greetings,
All my posted timings are local !

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