BRU - new "Connector"

[Tomskii]

Hi Danny,

Don't think they started working on the offices yet (at least didn't notice anything special last week. I have not seen any renderings of how the building will look but I think they will keep the old facade and probably just replace the windows (as I think they are still single glass windows). So externally not much will change, internally they will have modern offices with a view I would kill for

Hmm you are indeed not well informed Tomskii. The whole building will change drastically, inside and outside. Ther will be even a whole new fourth wall at the building to make it close. Now there are only three. Tomskii, it is all about prestige. Do you really think that Deloitte will be happy with an old surface but everything new inside? What kind of image would they give then. Do not forget that that it will be the headquarter of Deloitte. So a lot of international visitors will come to them too.


I will send a link

http://www.jaspers-eyers.be/gateway

http://www.brusselsairport.be/nl/mediaroom/news/37480/

Hi atlantis,

And you musn't be that good at reading then. As I said: I have not seen any renderings of how the building will look. I think they will keep the exterior. The think is or was pure speculation. I have not said it was a fact, I just said I thought they would do it that way. Why? The old building has it's charm. Overhauling it to me is a bit like breaking down a unesco protected site.

As for Flanker, sorry but I follow Atlantis on this one. Yes at the start revenues will be split between more shops. And since there are more shops for the same thing the costs of keeping them open are higher. However, saying people do not spend their last bucks of foreign money in these shops again is wrong. They do it all the time, I've seen it myself.

This category however is the one not taking care of the huge profits. It's the business traffic buying alcohol, sigars (of 1000 EUR for a box of 5 sigars for instance) and other premium products. Saying that a 40k EUR revenue is not doable every day for one shop thus again is wrong as well. Hell I worked there during the summer which is the calm period for business travel according to the terminal managers. Hence I know what's going back in the cash register as myself and my colleagues finish at the same time and we all see the checkout ticket with the amount of money..

As for the money laundering.. mmm might be possible but there is no proof. It's like saying all cops do not give fines to family members etc. Argument is just false over and over again. (hence it could be an article on het laatste nieuws as it's that rubbish)

[Established02]

However, saying people do not spend their last bucks of foreign money in these shops again is wrong. They do it all the time, I've seen it myself.

This category however is the one not taking care of the huge profits. It's the business traffic buying alcohol, sigars (of 1000 EUR for a box of 5 sigars for instance) and other premium products.

This recent controversial video comes to mind again. It gives you a glimpse of how many EU parliament members that travel through BRU may deal with money.
EU in Straatsburg http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3TAIHRW4ET4
EU in Brussels http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MPbNF1q_6tg

Luckily for the airport not everyone is as frugal as me. I think I haven't bought anything in the duty free zone of an airport in the past decade.

Actually, I find the 28 EUR airport tax already an excessive amount for the single use of a transportation facility. Of course I understand that BRU must have major expenses and is undertaking huge investments, that have to be financed with private means. But just like low cost carriers have found a viable business model, there might be a bright future for low cost airports as well.

[Flanker2]

However, saying people do not spend their last bucks of foreign money in these shops again is wrong. They do it all the time, I've seen it myself.

I hear you. I was referring to the fact that for instance in terminal A, most flights are intra-EU. Hence, most of the time it's not the people's last moneys, as they are either O&D'ing to another European city where they can use the currency, or flying to another hub to connect to a long haul flight, where they can still spend at the duty-free.

Atlantis, I disagree with your view.
I may not know anything about managing an airport but right now you are selling us hot air.
Being into branded products, having a window at the airport has been on the tables for us but it didn't make sense. You don't pay expensive rent, staff, shared expenses, decoration, etc..., etc.... for a window in BRU.
50% of pax are Belgian residents anyway, why should they buy at the airport if they can buy elsewhere.

Sure, Hedgren, Samsonite, Kipling, Esprit, Swarovski, watch shops, etc... can afford to have a window at the airport, but do they really sell that much, even through orders? Do you go to an airport to buy a good suit? Do you buy a 1000+ euro suit right before catching a flight?
Coffee and bars are full? Most only have 30 seats or so and they are not full. 6 euro for a sandwich, 3.5 euro for a coke or a coffee... Understandably people are not in line to buy stuff and you see that the shops change hands and bransing all the time.
There are plenty of vending machines in terminal A where you can buy 50cl bottles at lower prices.

Yes, I noticed, and so do customers.

[Atlantis]

Coffee and bars are full? Most only have 30 seats or so and they are not full. 6 euro for a sandwich, 3.5 euro for a coke or a coffee... Understandably people are not in line to buy stuff and you see that the shops change hands and bransing all the time.
There are plenty of vending machines in terminal A where you can buy 50cl bottles at lower prices.

Yes, I noticed, and so do customers.

Indeed bars, restaurants are full. When I'm not using the lounges, then for sure I use one of them. In the departing hall (and you have many of them there) and A Concourse they are mostly full. I can compare as I'm travelling on each every hour of the day. Even the most expensive one, like this in the A-pier is Always full and you need to make a reservation instead.
Only 30 seats?? Look around next time when you go to the airport and do a walk, you will be surprised how big capacity some of them have.

Luckily for those bars and restaurants people are not thinking like you when you only take sth of the vending machine. They don't care about some euro's and take a good meal in the restaurants or a good drink in one of the many bars.

BRU did a good job in allowing also those juice stands, they are selling like nothing. Last time, I saw a queue at the A-pier who was reaching the first gates!!

So tell me, who can be against that revenu and after also profit in Retail is bad for a place like Brussels Airport. Why is it not accepted and why it is not allowed to put shops, bars, restaurants at the airport. Should it look like a dry desert? Only departing hall and gates? Nothing more.

Try your own airport and airline then.

[Flanker2]

Ah you mean the 8 euro a cup smoothies stand as you walk into terminal A's main corridor? That stand is always empty when I travel, except for the 2 or 3 employees standing there.

What do our resident avgeeks think? Are shops in terminal A crawling with people when you guys travel? Is this a recent, new and inexplicable phenomenon?
Or just the fruit (juice) of Atlantis'' imagination?

Nowadays even the landside restaurant with the view on the tarmac isn't popular anymore, you can easily fetch a seat by the window at any time of day.

[Atlantis]

Dear Flanker2,

If you are not able to have a real debate instead of other people look like fools, then you better can stop. You have your own imagination about aviation in general and you are not able to accept valuble points of people who are working day in, day out in aviation. Those people have the knowledge, facts and know better what is going on behind the scenes and on the workfloor.
You would be surprised about the Retail figures at BRU (revenu and profit). But according to you there is no revenu or profit as every shop, bar, restaurant is empty at every moment of the day.

Even when our national airline, Belgian charter companies or BRU are doing good things, you cannot deal with it and search for negative points.

Poor guy.

[AirOpinion]

Ever been to Copenhagen, Dublin... This is probably what they want to achieve with the new connector. In this mather they are a good example. No empty shops there since you just can't ignore them... You have to go through them.

[Flanker2]

Dear Flanker2,

If you are not able to have a real debate instead of other people look like fools, then you better can stop. You have your own imagination about aviation in general and you are not able to accept valuble points of people who are working day in, day out in aviation. Those people have the knowledge, facts and know better what is going on behind the scenes and on the workfloor.
You would be surprised about the Retail figures at BRU (revenu and profit). But according to you there is no revenu or profit as every shop, bar, restaurant is empty at every moment of the day.

Even when our national airline, Belgian charter companies or BRU are doing good things, you cannot deal with it and search for negative points.

Poor guy.

When your arguments don't hold up, you go personal. Aren't you taking yourself a bit too seriously?
I appreciate your views and testimonies, but they don't match with what I and others see, nor do they match with realities of common travelers.

From my experience, it's not attractive to rent floor space airside in a small airport, because:
-not everyone can access your shop at any time. It requires a boarding pass. This limits the options to impulsive customers who are not planning to purchase a product, except for souvenirs or typical Belgian products and some branded products that see benefit in a window-space, food stands.
-rent is typically expensive and you have to pay significant shared charges for maintenance
-you have to pass through security and so does your merchandise
-this will result in higher expenses, and higher prices, which does push away customers.

That being said, I don't think that the shops will be empty in the beginning, I think that it's just a lost opportunity to add gate space, instead of extending terminal A to the West. They could have added both shops and gates there, instead of only adding shops.

My question is thus: is it really worth investing more than 70 million euro's for a blunt corridor with shops? How long will it take to break-even? Will people still be able to use the walkways or will they have to walk through all the length of the corridor? Are they going to make elderly people walk too?

[flightlover]

All of you suggesting to make gates at the connector are forgetting that a pushback will be hell for a plane standing at those gates. It will have to do a 180 to get on route. Taking in mind the safety distance behind a moving aircraft, this will be quite a long pushback/tow procedure.

The only gates feasible at the connector are bus gates for remote stands. Don't know if there is much need for them.

To me the connector is quite frankly a waist of money. It may make it a little more pleasant to transfer to terminal A, but it makes it much harder for planes to reach the other side of the airport. Especially when the extension to terminal A is build.

[Conti764]

What do our resident avgeeks think? Are shops in terminal A crawling with people when you guys travel? Is this a recent, new and inexplicable phenomenon?
Or just the fruit (juice) of Atlantis'' imagination?

When I worked at the airport, now over a year ago, I do remember quite some passengers stopping by and having a drink in the various bars in the Topaaz building and beyond. All three Starbucks coffee shops for instance are very popular, as is that bar at the Topaaz between Starbucks and Quick, the seafood bar between the Topaaz and the actual A-pier and the Sports Bar further down the A-pier.

Of course, everything depends on time of day. During peak hours you'd see much activity at most bars and, to a lesser extend, shops at the entire airport.

Another thing you have to keep in mind. Most, if not all, bars - even the Starbucks franchise - are in hands of Autogrill and all shops are in hands of Skyshops. I assume these companies look to the total revenue before looking at the revenue of individuel shops. When I still worked at BRU, I was told both companies made rather huge profits of their airport activities.

Nowadays even the landside restaurant with the view on the tarmac isn't popular anymore, you can easily fetch a seat by the window at any time of day.

Honestly, I guess that has more to do with the outdated state and the rather filthy reputation it has. You have homeless people sitting, esp. at the windows, throughout most of the day and - let us stay polite - they don't cary the most welcoming scent with them.

Another issue this bar has to deal with is the general public. I can't imagine the average businessman strolling to the fourth floor just to have a nice window seat to see tarmac activity. You'd have to rely on leisure pax and their family and albeit having been regularly asked where 'the bar is where you can see planes', people tend to move quicker past passportcontrol and/or security and stroll around at airside. They are being dropped off at the airport by a relative/friend/no matter who... or a taxi and don't care too much about the Wingtips restaurant.

[danieln]

Maybe a stupid question, but as far as I remember, the "gap" between the A en B-piers is often used by cargo planes to taxi to and from the cargo hangars. What will happen when that gap is filled biy the connector?

[Airbus A330]

Hello everybody!

I have a little question: The construction works of A Pier West will start during the Connector construction or only when the Connector will be finished?

[Flanker2]

All of you suggesting to make gates at the connector are forgetting that a pushback will be hell for a plane standing at those gates. It will have to do a 180 to get on route. Taking in mind the safety distance behind a moving aircraft, this will be quite a long pushback/tow procedure.

The only gates feasible at the connector are bus gates for remote stands. Don't know if there is much need for them.

To me the connector is quite frankly a waist of money. It may make it a little more pleasant to transfer to terminal A, but it makes it much harder for planes to reach the other side of the airport. Especially when the extension to terminal A is build.

I think that there is enough room there for the towing to be done at 90° angle and for the aircraft to continue on to either of the taxiways running between A & B by turning another 90°by themselves.
Of course, there isn't enough room for widebodies, but these can be reserved for narrowbodies.
Imagine how much room it would have freed up in terminal A by adding 6 gates, and they could have added the shops at the same time, thus saving the hundreds of millions they are planning to spend to extend terminal A, all while making the experience more pleasant and bringing the "center of mass" of the gates closer to the main building. Like that it would have been much more like in AMS.

It's a waste of money, indeed.

Regarding the use of the taxiways, I think that the inconvenience will be bigger for Abelag rather than cargo aircraft. I found that point rather dangerous from a groud ops perspective in low visibility or at night, the taxilines were in a S curve and a lot of vehicle traffic going through there and vehicle drivers had to turn around to check that there was no incoming aircraft and those tugs are noisy so you can't hear aircraft coming. It was even more dangerous during the Diabolo works.
Aircraft can still go around terminal A to reach the Western apron, it's 100 meters of additional taxiing after landing on 25L.

[flightlover]

All of you suggesting to make gates at the connector are forgetting that a pushback will be hell for a plane standing at those gates. It will have to do a 180 to get on route. Taking in mind the safety distance behind a moving aircraft, this will be quite a long pushback/tow procedure.

The only gates feasible at the connector are bus gates for remote stands. Don't know if there is much need for them.

To me the connector is quite frankly a waist of money. It may make it a little more pleasant to transfer to terminal A, but it makes it much harder for planes to reach the other side of the airport. Especially when the extension to terminal A is build.

I think that there is enough room there for the towing to be done at 90° angle and for the aircraft to continue on to either of the taxiways running between A & B by turning another 90°by themselves.
Of course, there isn't enough room for widebodies, but these can be reserved for narrowbodies.
Imagine how much room it would have freed up in terminal A by adding 6 gates, and they could have added the shops at the same time, thus saving the hundreds of millions they are planning to spend to extend terminal A, all while making the experience more pleasant and bringing the "center of mass" of the gates closer to the main building. Like that it would have been much more like in AMS.

...

Maybe you can tell me where they would find the 125m safety zone behind a taxiing aircraft. Not to mention they have to give more power to the engine to start taxiing.
As you like to look on the Internet this is the link: http://www.brusselsairport.be/en/corpor ... fic_rules/

And as an extra comment: Planes can in theory push them self of by reversing the engines. However due to safety reasons this is not done (the glass facade could crack etc.). So somehow it doesn't seem to be a good idea to put a jet with the exhaust towards a building and passing vehicles.

[Atco EBBR]

I don't think it would be possible to put any gates on the west side of the connector, it's enough of a problem with the current stands as it is.

For example, traffic pushing back from stands 143 and 145 have to pull forward until abeam stand 151. Meaning that during their push, they are interfering with stands 143, 145, 147, 149, 151 and even 153. And then there is the same thing on the S line with stands 204 and 206. So imagine if you will 3 or 4 departures from those stands and additionally 2 or 3 arrivals for those stands at the same time (definately no exception). It just is impossible to handle those aircraft expeditiously...

I don't even want to begin to think how much further the situation would be complicated with another 3 stands on the connector...

Regarding the loss of taxiway R3, it's not so much a problem for cargo aircraft (I expect you mean DHL?), as they usually land on 25R and taxi via J. The big problem is the funnel you create at INN3 and OUT3. The easyjets on stands 134-138 push on INN3. So, often this taxiway is blocked during their push back. As said before, OUT3 is in the sensitive area of 25R, so in case of bad visibility, has to be kept clear when there are arrivals on 25R. And all traffic to and from abelag, stands 680-699 and from brucargo has to pass through these 2 taxiways in addition to landings on 25R that vacate B7 or later. Making N available for wingspan up to 65m would be helpfull, but that doesn't seem to be happening anytime soon...

[Atlantis]

Maybe a stupid question, but as far as I remember, the "gap" between the A en B-piers is often used by cargo planes to taxi to and from the cargo hangars. What will happen when that gap is filled biy the connector?

Hi Danieln,

There are no stupid questions.

Cargo planes are not using often the space between Concourse A and B, or better saying, they don't use it.

This space is more used by general aviation and arriving planes using parking lots at the beginning of Concourse A or B.

[Tomskii]

Ever been to Copenhagen, Dublin... This is probably what they want to achieve with the new connector. In this mather they are a good example. No empty shops there since you just can't ignore them... You have to go through them.

CPH mmm was there a few months ago. If BRU is becoming like CPH oh hell yes please have that connector. CPH must've been one of the few European airports that are really nice to stroll around in. Some terminals are aged, but they are constantly renovating. Really a top airport!


@Daniel: For now (until A-pier west is built) they still have taxiway J to reach the DHL cargo terminal. Once that's built I suppose BRU will have to make them taxi a little while longer but hey it's only DHL using that + general aviation.

[cnc]

All of you suggesting to make gates at the connector are forgetting that a pushback will be hell for a plane standing at those gates. It will have to do a 180 to get on route. Taking in mind the safety distance behind a moving aircraft, this will be quite a long pushback/tow procedure.

so that would be the most fun pushback stand
i always loved the pushbacks on stand 201, 205, 207 and 209