Aeroflot A320 contaminated wing take-off

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Flanker
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Aeroflot A320 contaminated wing take-off

Post by Flanker »

The video says it all...
Reckless flying or improper deicing?


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galaxy
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Re: Aeroflot A320 contaminated wing take-off

Post by galaxy »

It's a secret Russian new de-icing technic : de-icing during take-off ! ! ! :lol:

Flanker
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Re: Aeroflot A320 contaminated wing take-off

Post by Flanker »

Statement was made by Director of air safety deparment Alexandr Koldunov and deputy to CEO/operations director Igor Chalik. Both are also members of the board.

What is more astonishing is that these both persons hold commericial pilot licences:

Koldunov (born in 1952) in Aeroflot since 1976. Advanced from FO to Instructor pilot and head of safety department. Honoured pilot (state-award) of Russian Federation. Type-rated for IL-96 and B767 as instructor. Over 15 thousand flight hours.



Chalik (born in 1957) in Aeroflot since 1983. Used to be a pilot of TU-134, IL-86, A310, A320, A330 (chief pilot in AFL for A330). Honoured pilot (state-award) of Russian Federation. Around 14 thousand flight hours.



Source (in russian): link

PS. Images are official and from Aeroflot website.

Koldunov and Chalik's statement (be prepared, you won't believe these words): There are no violations whatsoever and this can be clearly seen on the video - snow has been blown off instantly [really ?!] during takeoff roll and therefore definitely didn't affect aerodynamics [really ?!] and safety. Safety is our priority.

Link (in russian): link

Needless to say that it was not blown off instantly (1), it was not blown off completely (2), it DID affect aerodynamics (deformed laminar flow thus increased stall speed, increased actual Vr speed and reduced critical AOA, among other things) (3), it also a clear violation of FCOM (4).

Clearly no pilot with a good state of mind will ever produce such a statement. They know it too, all this is - is an attempt to condone their pilots (or may be they genuinely think they are correct, who knows...). They given this statement thinking noone will dare to criticize it OR (which is more likely) noone in russia will ever appreciate how reckless such behavior is and therefore will never raise a concern (I did - sent them a link to youtube video with a word "shame" After receiving this statement from them, i've written a summary of A320 FCOM and Aeroflot SOP violations and basic outline why it did affect aerodynamics. Never heard a word from them since.).

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cathay belgium
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Re: Aeroflot A320 contaminated wing take-off

Post by cathay belgium »

OMG :o

And a guy/girl filmed this without yelling ??
Luckily it ended well ...

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Inquirer
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Re: Aeroflot A320 contaminated wing take-off

Post by Inquirer »

Well, whether or not it is against the rules and thus illegal, quite a few accountants have been looking at this video in total disbelief wondering just why they are paying millions in de-icing fees every single winter, I am sure?! :mrgreen:

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luchtzak
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Post by luchtzak »

Amazing :roll:

smokejumper
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Re: Aeroflot A320 contaminated wing take-off

Post by smokejumper »

This video gives me shudders. I was on the Express (southbound) lanes of the 14th Street Bridge in Washington DC (in January 1982) when an Air Florida 737 crashed into the Northbound structure. We were about 150 meters from the crash which was caused by improper de-icing procedures. The plane had been de-iced and then took too long to push back and get to the runway, allowing new ice t form. 78 died.

This A-320 was very fortunate!

Mavke
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Re: Aeroflot A320 contaminated wing take-off

Post by Mavke »

its indeed amazing ...

But for years we had a tu204 at Brussels every night ,
when al 35 planes of dhl needed de-icing due heavy snow or heavy icing , the 204 was the only aircraft that didn't need any de-icing....
the plane was always heavy loaded with cargo, and the wings and fuselage full of snow,
there were times we thought that we would find the plane back behind the church of diegem

ken

regi
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Re: Aeroflot A320 contaminated wing take-off

Post by regi »

I trully believe all negative comment about this event. But on the other hand we have here this fact: a nice take off without any mishap.
Also the last remark by Mavke is interesting: just this specific Tu-204 didn't need de-icing. ( despite the experienced people thought it should )
So it raises some questions:
are the de-icing procedures necessary and/or correct? Maybe they should be changed, according to specific parameters. ( runway length, aircraft type with specific equipment, type of ice or snow, time, outside temperatures and humidity,...)
If this case is an example of " they were lucky this time", it is a terrible incident.
But maybe aviation in general should look at this more positively, to learn from.

Just personnal ideas.

appel
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Re: Aeroflot A320 contaminated wing take-off

Post by appel »

regi wrote: So it raises some questions:
are the de-icing procedures necessary and/or correct? Maybe they should be changed, according to specific parameters. ( runway length, aircraft type with specific equipment, type of ice or snow, time, outside temperatures and humidity,...)
The runway length wouldn't affect that much except you can have a higher speed which is further away from your increased stall speed. But you don't know how the contamination affects the aerodynamics of your wing.
The type of contamination and outside conditions (humidity, temperature, precipitation) are already taken in account when calculating the hold over time which is the time when it's safe to take off between the application of the (last, hot) stage of the de-/anti-ice and take off.

regi
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Re: Aeroflot A320 contaminated wing take-off

Post by regi »

just a quick wild guess:
The Tu-134, Tu-154 and Yakovlev had a wing sweep with a large angle, very sensible for any ice contamination.
All those thousands of Russian pilots who still fly these birds in severe weather conditions all over Russia must be aware about the influence of ice and snow on their wings. Especially with such big sweep wings.
I assume that in many Siberian aerodromes, the de icing equipment is not on par with modern , western equipment. And because of several reasons, the procedures might be overruled. But the pilots still manage to take off.
So that was in fact my point: do those pilots take much more risks or is there no real risk because they have experiences that western pilots don't have ?

Please do allow me to give 1 wild guess: vibration. I can imagine that the runways in Siberia are not that smooth as in the west. And the older aircrafts shudder and shiver when they are given full throttle. Could that be a factor for Russian trained pilots to rely on shaking off the ice ?

It would be great if a Russian pilot could enter this subject here.
What do we really know about Russian / ex USSR aviation after WWII ?

JAF737

Re: Aeroflot A320 contaminated wing take-off

Post by JAF737 »

regi wrote: Please do allow me to give 1 wild guess: vibration. I can imagine that the runways in Siberia are not that smooth as in the west. And the older aircrafts shudder and shiver when they are given full throttle. Could that be a factor for Russian trained pilots to rely on shaking off the ice ?
Are you serious? :roll:

convair
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Re: Aeroflot A320 contaminated wing take-off

Post by convair »

Not being an expert, I would tend to look at Regi's remarks; there might be experience to be gained from the fomer SU "cow-boys". Surely he's not suggesting to replace de-icing by Siberia-style runways!!! ;)

JAF737

Re: Aeroflot A320 contaminated wing take-off

Post by JAF737 »

Well, just put yourself in an aircraft with contaminated wings then. And pray, I guess.
Is that what you really suggest?

There is absolutely NO way to think this was a good guess by the Aeroflot pilots. There are VERY CLEAR limitations given by Airbus (in this case), VERY CLEAR limitations given by tables telling pilots the time they have to be airbone from the beginning of the de-icing, and VERY CLEAR types of icing that are dangerous for safe flight.

Sorry guys, but this is just crazy.

How many accidents have we already seen due to icing? Eh? Do you really want some more?

The Air Ontario (Fokker 28) crew in Canada was also very familiar with such conditions - but they crashed anyway. Just to say that you don't need to live at the North Pole to know how dangerous it is.

B.Inventive
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Re: Aeroflot A320 contaminated wing take-off

Post by B.Inventive »

Honestly the only time I like to take my 'chances' like that is on a hand of poker... and even then my pokergame is more reliable...
Seriously... this is not safe! Period!

regi
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Re: Aeroflot A320 contaminated wing take-off

Post by regi »

JAF737 wrote:
regi wrote: Please do allow me to give 1 wild guess: vibration. I can imagine that the runways in Siberia are not that smooth as in the west. And the older aircrafts shudder and shiver when they are given full throttle. Could that be a factor for Russian trained pilots to rely on shaking off the ice ?
Are you serious? :roll:
My question is indeed serious, but please try to understand my question ( it was not a suggestion for a new kind of de icing :roll: ) :
how do those Russian pilots come to this practice of neglecting standard de icing procedures?
And I just was thinking about their experience of the last 30-40 years: blasting off a remote wobly airstrip - but very long, typical for Russian airfields because of their double use as bomber bases - those pilots might have had the experience that this was always the way to do it.
If they got away with that so many times, without sanctions or remarks, everybody is happy. Now in the days of small camera devices, it turns out there is a problem.
Referring to the crashes by icing: it is well documented and must be known by the Russians. Especially because of their big sweep wing designs.
Again: some input by Russian pilots would be interesting.
( btw: this is not an attempt to overclass one of our dear members with the most ridiculous ideas 8-) )

andorra-airport
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Re: Aeroflot A320 contaminated wing take-off

Post by andorra-airport »

@ Regi (and all others),

The following comment (on airliners.net) will be of interest to you:


"(Pihero)

I have seen this type of flying countless times in the olld Soviet Union, at Moscou, Kiev and various airports.
with temperatures well below freezing -say -20°C and below, they are sure that there is no ice under the powdered snow and tha powdered snow is made of "rounder" crystals than the pretty branched ones you'd find at temperatures around zero.
That means the snow will never compact on its own but will blow off with the relative airflow.
First time I saw it, it was an IL-62 with about - I swear ! - 10 cm of snow on its surfaces and I called the tower to tell about an aircraft that hadn't deiced I had to repeat the message ten times - the tower didn't get it and the -62 took off in a spectacular cloud of blown white snow... five minutes later a TU 154 did the same, and then another...
The above info was given to me by a senior Aeroflot captain who clmaimed tha it is in fact safer than deicing and then letting the validity time elapse...
One has to be very sure of oneself and that puts the proverbial act of faith into another perspective."

If you want to read the whole thread : http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forum ... 14750/1/#1

convair
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Re: Aeroflot A320 contaminated wing take-off

Post by convair »

@ JAF737

No need to get angry here! Trying to understand why others have different procedures doesn't necessarily mean you have to imitate them. A little more open-mindedness would sometimes be nice on this forum!

regi
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Re: Aeroflot A320 contaminated wing take-off

Post by regi »

well, we receive here some data. So we wee already a difference between snow and ice. And in freezing temperatures, I can imagine that it would be better to leave the snow on the wings ( it acts as a blanket ) instead of de icing the airplane, risking that ice would form afterwards on cold surfaces .
I have witnessed once ice build up on vertical metal surfaces of about 0.5 cm thick in half an hour ! ( for the "connaisseurs": at Elsenborn, where else :roll: ) . Icicles formed of 10 cm long at the edges.

But there is also the fear of the passenger, and I do fully agree that I certainly would not like to witness such an event myself.

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