ATC and other costs at CRL Charleroi

[Outsync]

Maybe it's a good time to let CRL pay for ATC services?

[sn26567]

Maybe it's a good time to let CRL pay for ATC services?

Not only CRL. None of the regional airports pays for ATC....

[Squelsh]

Nice set of numbersin this first post.
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Now also provide the number of movements.
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As from 50000 movs per year, it is not a regional airport anymore.

[tolipanebas]

Bring on the ATC charges, I'd say, so the unfair subsidizing of movements at CRL through a too high ATC fee at BRU can finally be done away with! I am sure FR won't mind: after all, they hate unfair subsidies, don't they, so they will be more than pleased to be allowed to finally pay their part in the total cost... :clap:

[SN1203]

Bring on the ATC charges, I'd say, so the unfair subsidizing of movements at CRL through a too high ATC fee at BRU can finally be done away with! I am sure FR won't mind: after all, they hate unfair subsidies, don't they, so they will be more than pleased to be allowed to finally pay their part in the total cost... :clap:

At the same time, I'd also suggest Ryanair to start respecting social legislation and convert the Irish contracts into Belgian contracts, so that our government finally gets something back for all the money that is being pumped into what the Walloon government sees as their "flag carrier".

[airazurxtror]

In "Turbulente Tijden - De Belgishe luchtvaart na Sabena", page 235 :


... een akkoord tussen gewesten en federale overheid dat dateert van 1989. Volgens die overeenkomst worden de bijdragen die de regionale luchthaven aan Belgocontrol moeten betalen voor geleverde navigatiediensten beperkt, ook als de trafiek stijgt.

... an agreement between regions and federal government dating back to 1989. Under that agreement, the contribution that the regional airports have to pay for Belgocontrol navigation is limited, even when the traffic increases.

Sinds 2003 worden de landingsvergoedingen voor Brussels airport niet meer verhoogd, ze zijn zelfs niet geïndexeerd. Allicht een compensatie voor de groiende concurrentie van de regionale luchthaven.

Since 2003, the Brussels airport landing fees have not been increased, they are not even indexed. Probably a compensation for the growing competition from the regional airport.

[jan_olieslagers]

they are not even indexed

might be better translated as "not even corrected for inflation". I think the index, as known to Belgians, and very dear to some, might be less and/or differently known abroad.

[jan_olieslagers]

so that our government finally gets something back for all the money that is being pumped into what the Walloon government sees as their "flag carrier"

Ah, but to Belgian regional authorities (ALL of them, AFAIU) the federal government is only a source of money, never a destination. Sorry to bring up the political bit again, it has been said before this is unavoidable when discussing aviation in Belgium (or any other subject, for that matter).

[Squelsh]

Love this forum for quite some time now with all the hardcore info for spotters and airline liveries, new airplanes in fleets, new routes, planes that retire (SN B707 eg), General Aviation, airline press releases, etc.. but when this legislation stuff comes into the picture it becomes harder and harder not to post and bother readers with facts that do not bring the most amiable feelings in any convo when amongst Belgian friends. But facts are facts and any rational man has to ask for himself to which to point to be critical when it comes to legislation and royal decrees in his home country.
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European legislation (which is more on the rise and -safe to say- overruling sovereign legislation in core-member states) defines the policy when it comes to this symbolical number of 50000. Belgium has been slapped on the wrist by the EU because the number of movements officialy communicated by the Belgian state for CRL is hazy to say the least. Please I invite you to click the two below links. One is a press release from 8/12, the other from 2 months ago. Both are in native Dutch and come from a political party (Mod, if this is considdered "not-done" on these boards please delete urls, if so I apologise). I hate to do this but it is on today's agenda for he who follows the parliament and European legislation, whether we like it or not.
.
http://www.n-va.be/nieuws/persberichten ... n-zaventem
http://www.n-va.be/nieuws/column/oneerl ... et-stoppen
.
Mind for CRL the Safety is guaranteed and paid for by the Belgian state, contrary to BRU.. Permanency on a fire-Brigade does not come cheap.. Another toll gate for Flanker. Damn i hate soundling like a Troll

[jan_olieslagers]

Trying to comply with the request from Acid-drop, and trying to keep up objectivity:
@Squelsh, you seem to imply that the fire brigade at Gosselies Airport is paid from some Belgian federal budget. I find this hard to imagine (though one never knows, of course, in Belgium), and am curious to know your sources. Or have I misinterpreted your words?

[Squelsh]

Got it from that press release, maybe I got wrong, it's a decree still in progress so can't be taken into account with the (very good) numbers in the first post.
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It just bothers me that number of movements was not mentioned in first post.

[tolipanebas]

In "Turbulente Tijden - De Belgishe luchtvaart na Sabena", page 235 :

... een akkoord tussen gewesten en federale overheid dat dateert van 1989. Volgens die overeenkomst worden de bijdragen die de regionale luchthaven aan Belgocontrol moeten betalen voor geleverde navigatiediensten beperkt, ook als de trafiek stijgt.

... an agreement between regions and federal government dating back to 1989. Under that agreement, the contribution that the regional airports have to pay for Belgocontrol navigation is limited, even when the traffic increases.

Sinds 2003 worden de landingsvergoedingen voor Brussels airport niet meer verhoogd, ze zijn zelfs niet geïndexeerd. Allicht een compensatie voor de groiende concurrentie van de regionale luchthaven.

Since 2003, the Brussels airport landing fees have not been increased, they are not even indexed. Probably a compensation for the growing competition from the regional airport.

So to summarize, CRL isnt paying anyting at all and in 'compensation' and since only a few years, BRU -who's the only one paying all the bills- needn't pay more year after year after year...
So basically airlines at BRU are still being milked as before, but just not milked more year after year, then, right?
Sorry but that still doesn't sound like a fair deal to me: let everybody pay their own bills, me thinks!
There's really no need for airlines at BRU to subsidize CRL, especially not given the airlines operating there are always bragging how profitable they are: let them pay for their own lunch then, just as all others who sit at the table.

And to acid-drop: this is completely ON TOPIC, as this financial transfer from north to south (yep, yet another one in Belgium) is one of the main reasons why CRL is so successful, you know?
If CRL lets the Belgian public pick up all their airport bills ranging from ATC services to fire brigade, then obviously, they're being given a competitive advantage over any other airport in Belgium (i.e. BRU) that needs to fund those services privately, from charging its customers.

I think it is high time SN simply steps up the game and just makes a unilateral move: stop paying those fees! What are Belgocontrol going to do about it? Shoot an SN plane from the skies? For doing what FR's planes have been doing since ages: i.e. fly for free in Belgian airspace?

SN's managements are such woossies when it comes to dealing with Belgocontrol, IMHO: these are costs which can be slashed by tens of millions annnually in a split second, all without anybody at SN feeling an impact from it! What are they waiting for: another invitation to a dinner meeting in some posh restaurant in Brussels?

[airazurxtror]

In "Turbulente Tijden - De Belgishe luchtvaart na Sabena", page 235 :

... een akkoord tussen gewesten en federale overheid dat dateert van 1989. Volgens die overeenkomst worden de bijdragen die de regionale luchthaven aan Belgocontrol moeten betalen voor geleverde navigatiediensten beperkt, ook als de trafiek stijgt.

... an agreement between regions and federal government dating back to 1989. Under that agreement, the contribution that the regional airports have to pay for Belgocontrol navigation is limited, even when the traffic increases.

So to summarize, CRL isnt paying anyting at all and in 'compensation' and since only a few years, BRU -who's the only one paying all the bills- needn't pay more year after year after year...

Read more carefully : all the regional airports pay a limited fee for Belgocontrol.
That means Charleroi all right, but also Oostend, Wevelgem, Deurne and Liège.
There is more traffic for Liège and Charleroi than for Oostend, Wevelgem and Deurne. Whose fault is it ?

op. cit. page 228 :

Vlaamse onmacht.
De volontarische en doortastende aanpak van de Waalse overheid steekt schril af tegen de aanhoudende lethargie die Vlaanderen kenmerkt als het gaat over luchthaven.

Flemish impotence.
The wilful and energetic approach of the Walloon government contrasts sharply with the persistent lethargy that characterizes Flanders when it comes to airports.

(Google translation)

[tolipanebas]

Read more carefully : all the regional airports pay a limited fee for Belgocontrol.
That means Charleroi all right, but also Oostend, Wevelgem, Deurne and Liège.
There is more traffic for Liège and Charleroi than for Oostend, Wevelgem and Deurne. Whose fault is it ?

That's largerly irrelevant and in fact the lack of any significant airport development in Flanders, is currently avoiding the situation to become even more unfair than it already is right now for BRU and the airlines operating there, you know?

The one and only lesson to learn from this is that the agreement from the late 1980s is no longer a valid basis for today's repartition of ATC costs in Belgium: whereas back then, only a tiny little fraction of flights went to airports other than BRU, it made sense not to bother with individually billing them, yet given the fact that nowadays about 1 in 3 flights landing in Belgium goes to CRL or LGL, one would expect CRL and LGL to also pick up about 1/3rd of the total bill from Belgocontrol, something which is not even remotely the case today...

Seriously, you can't be against paying what is nothing but your own portion of the operating costs of something as important to passenger safety as air traffic control, can you?

[tolipanebas]

Bring on the ATC charges, I'd say, so the unfair subsidizing of movements at CRL through a too high ATC fee at BRU can finally be done away with! I am sure FR won't mind: after all, they hate unfair subsidies, don't they, so they will be more than pleased to be allowed to finally pay their part in the total cost... :clap:

At the same time, I'd also suggest Ryanair to start respecting social legislation and convert the Irish contracts into Belgian contracts, so that our government finally gets something back for all the money that is being pumped into what the Walloon government sees as their "flag carrier".

Yeah, so there would finally be some return on investment, but realistically speeking, it isn't very likely...

However, one could also wonder why SN feels so attatched to our Belgian fiscal system?
Personally, I wouldn't mind to see us being delocalized to for instance the Grand Duchy of Luxembourg and pay income taxes and social security fees overthere; with the recently announced radical pension reforms to the until now very advantageous pension system of flying staff, there really are ZERO reasons remaining to stay flying under a Belgian flag, you know? We'd be getting far and far more net salary, while SN could seriously slash labour costs even: the only loser being obviously the Belgian government! Sadly, with our irrational patriotic shareholders of today, such a move isn't very likely neither, but is should at least be considered to build a bargaining position vis-a-vis our all too gready government, nevertheless...

[cathay belgium]

Hi,

What the northerns just want to say : we also like that CRL is running good business, but maybe with CRL good news show ,it's gonna be time that they start too share within the costs of BELGIUM's ATC ...
Running a good airport it's easy when you don't have to pay an equally amount/share ..
As before.. some old bad laws from years ago must be renewed as time and situations are changed to a new situation.

I hope CRL will grew more in the future but not on BRU wallet !
Sharing costs and money transfers in both directions please, it's normal in this belgian situation..
Until now we better search for belgian profit instead of helping the irish ... no ?

About going to fly under Luxemburg flag
This should have been done years ago by the SN management but better would be that our own government finally stands up and support our own aviation industry, less taxes will eventually turn into a raise of this branche/niche and will lead to an equally result in the end with a better/growing position..

What's will be + going to Luxemburg ? Less income for BRU/belgium so arrange something politicians..
Under SN's pressure of quitting belgium

Hope europe will clear this situation for us... time for an equal cost splitting IMO..

CX-B

[jan_olieslagers]

There is more traffic for Liège and Charleroi than for Oostend, Wevelgem and Deurne. Whose fault is it ?

Translating to me as "Wallonians were clever to find a way to tap federal money, and the Flemish are stupid not to do the same."

[cathay belgium]

Hi,

Translating to me as "Wallonians were clever to find a way to tap federal money, and the Flemish are stupid not to do the same."

Jan, guess your translations are damn good
But we may not blame the Walloons for doing this,just blame our federal politicians for giving this possibility to them and our Flemish politicians for not doing the same with OST or ANR.. what a shame BTW..

But this can and may not be the reality in the future.. wrong things must be changed..
Everybody needs to pay his part of the lunch... and before MoL don't like this and will attack CRL by saying of leaving it.. the european board ( Merkel/Sarkozy ) needs to adapt an act for whole europe ...
If so... MoL can go flying in AFI or so...

I know fares will go up with FR in this case but better honestly than in this way..
( You can't take the train for free in the end so why a plane, booked last week a trip to Lithuania for 25 euro's all in return, sorry but this MAY/COULD NOT be possible IMHO.. but I booked it just because I can.. ! But this subsidied travelling just for fun couldn't be the reason for that money I guess ... )

CX-B

[airazurxtror]

There is more traffic for Liège and Charleroi than for Oostend, Wevelgem and Deurne. Whose fault is it ?

Translating to me as "Wallonians were clever to find a way to tap federal money, and the Flemish are stupid not to do the same."

What I wanted to point out is that the Walloon have chosen to develop their airports, and the Flemish have chosen not to develop theirs, but to develop other sectors of activity.
Each region no doubt has very good reasons to act like they do and to make such a choice. It's not a case of one being more clever or more stupid than the other.
As an aviation fan, I like to have as many opportunities to travel as possible, and I take advantage of them whatever the region.
In the past, many are the flights I have taken at OST and at ANR and I regret very much that there are so few occasions to do so at present - crying on the good old time of Channel Airways, British Air Ferries, Pomair, Intra Airways, DAN-air, BIA, IFA, the original Delta Air Transport (and the Delta fan Club ...) who offered so many opportunities of interesting flying.

[sn26567]

Please I invite you to click the two below links. One is a press release from 8/12, the other from 2 months ago. Both are in native Dutch and come from a political party (Mod, if this is considdered "not-done" on these boards please delete urls, if so I apologise). I hate to do this but it is on today's agenda for he who follows the parliament and European legislation, whether we like it or not.
.
http://www.n-va.be/nieuws/persberichten ... n-zaventem
http://www.n-va.be/nieuws/column/oneerl ... et-stoppen

We would indeed prefer press releases from political parties not to be mentioned in our forum. Politicians will only mention facts that support their views and ignore facts that contradict their goals.

I did not change your post, so that readers can judge by themselves, but please keep this in mind for the future.