SN TATL flights

[HighInTheSky]

As we were diverting and going off-topic in other topics, I thought it was better to start a new post about this.

I heared rumours about a possible connection with JFK/EWR next summer?! But these are rumours

I heard the same, altough I've difficulties to believe that it will come already in S11. BTW, it would require another aircraft, something like A332, because I don't see them operating A333 to JFK/EWR.

Indeed those rumours are very persistent... We all know that the question is not WILL SN start to fly to JFK (not EWR) but WHEN.

There is already someone selected (or is he already over there?) who will start the investigation of the potential of an PM flight to JFK.
If the result is positive (and that is expected to be the case) flights will be started. If there should be no positive outcome, the plug will be pulled from this plan before money is invested.

Now an A332 is not really necessary... Ok, there are fewer seats, but when the A333's will start to get their new interior the product will be very competitive and totally in line with the TATL market today (or even better compared to no AVOD on AA and CO in Y).

So the question remains: when will SN start to fly TATL? At the moment this is pure specualtion ofcourse (unless someone else has a reliable source who can confirm an exact date ), but there is a special 'buzz' these last days at bHouse... I think there will be an announcement about all those big plans in the next weeks/month.
And my guess about when? Start of W11

[RoMax]

It seems that they are indeed really working on these TATL flights.
I think some import decision will be taken in the comming months.

But still, an A333 on BRU-JFK seems big to me. Only when they offer a very good product with good pricing and enough connection pax to AFI they could do it with an A333 I think.

[Air Key West]

As mentioned before, an evening flight to NYC is a must for two reasons :
- there is a demand from business travelers for such an evening flight and,
- when the flight comes back to BRU, it will offer optimal connections to b.air's second wave of Africa flights.
Slots permitting, flight times could be something like:
BRU NYC 19.20 21.50
NYC BRU 23.30 13.00
if a turnaround of 1h40 is possible. The later the flight leaves BRU, the more European connecting pax it can take, but the flight needs to be back at BRU in time for connections to Africa at 1405 hours.

[SN_fan]

But still, an A333 on BRU-JFK seems big to me. Only when they offer a very good product with good pricing and enough connection pax to AFI they could do it with an A333 I think.

If it's too big, isn't BRU-JFK-BOS-JFK-BRU or BRU-JFK-BOS-BRU or BRU-BOS-JFK-BRU not an option ??

[RoMax]

SN should start more early afternoon AFI flights with their sixth A333. An evening flight to NYC would have good connections with these flights. With more AFI flights and a NYC flight during the afternoon/evening, SN will attract more pax on their European network during the afternoon/evening. That could help with making the European network profitable. BRU is trying to get more afternoon flights, more AFI flights and a NYC flight would attract more other airlines during the noon/afternoon. The connection pax on the earlier AFI flights can use the CO flights.
So an evening flight to NYC and more afternoon flights to AFI would be a good idea, I think. It would attract more pax on SN's European, also on during the calm times (afternoon). It would attract more other carriers to BRU during the noon/afternoon. Expansion during the morning is difficult, so an expansion in the afternoon would optimise the capacity of the airport.

[Atlantis]

As mentioned before, an evening flight to NYC is a must for two reasons :
- there is a demand from business travelers for such an evening flight and,
- when the flight comes back to BRU, it will offer optimal connections to b.air's second wave of Africa flights.
Slots permitting, flight times could be something like:
BRU NYC 19.20 21.50
NYC BRU 23.30 13.00
if a turnaround of 1h40 is possible. The later the flight leaves BRU, the more European connecting pax it can take, but the flight needs to be back at BRU in time for connections to Africa at 1405 hours.

Indeed, that's why it is important to start up a second long haul wave during the afternoon. UA already announced that two flights of them are more then enough to BRU. Their partner/sister CO is still a big question about their second daily flight. I they would start up a second flight it will arrive next to the departure of their first flight ex-BRU according to the slots they asked in the past.

So SN could be operator where QR asked for. And like in the past, SN evening flight to NC departed around 19h30 with a lot of pax who missed their plane to NY on other European airports.

[brusselsairlinesfan]

For my part, I would be very happy to see SN launching this long awaited flight to the US with their own metal...
But I would bet on 2012 (unfortunately) because i think they will remain focused on Africa & Europe in 2011... but how knows?!

[sn26567]

But still, an A333 on BRU-JFK seems big to me.

Sabena used to operate the evening flight to JFK with a 343!

[FLYAIR10]

MR_Boeing wrote:
But still, an A333 on BRU-JFK seems big to me.
Sabena used to operate the evening flight to JFK with a 343!

What were the loadfactors in the 343 (and 747) days? and cargo carried?

[SN1203]

We all know that the question is not WILL SN start to fly to JFK (not EWR) but WHEN.

Why JFK and not EWR?

There is already someone selected (or is he already over there?) who will start the investigation of the potential of an PM flight to JFK.

You realize that every airline actually employs a bunch of people who continuously investigate all these things?

Only when they offer a very good product with good pricing

Less revenue and more cost, sounds like a winner!

[HighInTheSky]

Why JFK and not EWR?

Because as far as I understood one of our co-CEO's correctly, the main goal is not to attract people on this route to connect on an other flight in the US, but to attract people of the NYC area to fly on a continuous SN product from NYC to AFI. And for that reason it appears that JFK is more suited.

You realize that every airline actually employs a bunch of people who continuously investigate all these things?

Ofcourse I know that, but the fact that someone of the station management of one of our AFI stations is sent to NY to start up sales overthere does indicate that there is more going on than just some distant interest.

[cnc]

MR_Boeing wrote:
But still, an A333 on BRU-JFK seems big to me.
Sabena used to operate the evening flight to JFK with a 343!

What were the loadfactors in the 343 (and 747) days? and cargo carried?

i remember a decent loadfactor for Y but terrible for F class

[SN1203]

Ofcourse I know that, but the fact that someone of the station management of one of our AFI stations is sent to NY to start up sales overthere does indicate that there is more going on than just some distant interest.

Well, as far as I know, SN actually has been having a sales team in NY for years

[RoMax]

i remember a decent loadfactor for Y but terrible for F class

Typicall for BRU-TATL market I think. It's up to SN to offer a good product and attract as most as possible high yielding pax.

Only when they offer a very good product with good pricing

Less revenue and more cost, sounds like a winner!

Don't act like you don't understand it. You have to find the right combination of correct service (depending on the competition) and a good ticket price. I never said SN has to offer extremely low prices while offering a very good product.
BTW, You should know that SN is currently constantly making adjustements to their AFI prices. Currently they are pricing more agressively as in the past to increase their market share to AFI. With often pretty low prices (especially compared to the competition), while offering a decent product. Competitors like Ethiopian and Afriqiyah (wich are offering low prices) forces SN to a more aggresive pricing. Aggresive pricing can have negative result on your yields on the short term, but will have a much bigger positive effect after all. It's just about finding the right combination and that's what they have to do for their US routes. The BRU-TATL market is a difficult, often low yielding market, finding the right combination between correct/high service and the right price is very important and even more important than on the AFI market.

[Conti764]

i remember a decent loadfactor for Y but terrible for F class

Typicall for BRU-TATL market I think. It's up to SN to offer a good product and attract as most as possible high yielding pax.

Because all the BRU TATL flights leave in the same wave, and a lot of them to NYC... This market is very competitive and hard to make money on.

An evening flight could flip the coin in SN's advantage since it would be very convenient for business pax flying C, for the codesharepartners getting an evening flight from BRU and other pax who get rerouted via BRU due to missing their earlier flight.

An A333 could do the job, I guess.

[Stij]

Might I add that even for Y pax going on city trip to the big apple, an evening flight is more convenient as
well, how unlogical this may appear.

Morning flight scenario:

One departs at 11:00, so you have to take a day of holiday the day you depart. You arrive in NY at 13:00 and let's say you're in Manhattan at 15:00, if all goes well, you check-in in your room (if it's ready because in NY, that's not guaranteed and you're on the streets at 16:00. Basically the day's finished, in the evening you feel to tired to go for a drink etc. You go to sleep at 21:00 and you wake up at 4:00 because of the jetlag

We fly back! The bird departs at 19:00, so you have to be in the airport at 17:00, so you depart from Manhattan at 15:00 because of the traffic jams at rush hour. You arrive at 8:00 in the morning, head straight for the office where you "claim" to be working, but in fact, you're suffering from a gigantic jet lag.

One departs at 19:30, so arriving at 17:30 is OK, so you can still work the complete working day, no holiday has to be taken. You arrive at 21:30, at 22:30 you're in your taxi and at 23:30 you're in your hotel. You drink a Jack Daniels in the bar and of to bed you go. In the morning, you're brigth and shine.

The return. You flight departs at 23:30, so if you're in the airport at 21:30, you're fine, so you can leave from Manhattan at 20:30, after rush-hour! You still have a complete day in NY. You arrive the next day beginning of the afternoon, but you can go home , relax and you bright and shine into the office the next day.

Conclusion: same number of holidays, same time in NY, but less jetlag, more relaxed travelling.

Cheers,

Stij

P.S. Pleaeaease. give me back my evening flight!!!

[sn26567]

Brilliant demonstration, Stij. And indeed, for as far as I know, Sabena's evening A340 had a high load factor.

[regi]

hidden danger with evening flights: many airlines are afraid of them because if something goes wrong, they cannot depart anylonger because of night time closure.
But theoretically Stijn his schedules make sense.

[SN_fan]

hidden danger with evening flights: many airlines are afraid of them because if something goes wrong, they cannot depart anylonger because of night time closure.
But theoretically Stijn his schedules make sense.

Luckily BRU still has some night flights

[sn26567]

Luckily BRU still has some night flights

???

Only arrivals. Departures are not allowed between 23/00 and 06:00