Avro replacement

[airazurxtror]

Lufthansa has placed an order for 30 Bombardier CS100 (plus options for a further 30) to replace the Avro RJ100 operated by Swiss European Air Lines. The new model will reduce fuel consumption by more than a quarter in comparison to the Avros, cutting CO2 emissions by around 90.000 tonnes a year.
Lufthansa has thus now selected three different aircraft models to replace the BAe 146 and Avro RJ fleets of its subsidiaries :
- Eurowings : Bombardier CRJ900
- Air Dolomiti and CityLine : Embraer 190 and 195
- Swiss European : Bombardier CSeries
(Source : Airliner World, May 2009, page 4)
If the take-over is ever effective, one wonders what will be the choice of Lufthansa for Brussels Airlines.

[fcw]

...

[tolipanebas]

Recently, all AVRO leases have been renewed till the end of 2014, so don't expect any quick replacement from the RJ fleet at SN, not even after the LH take-over... there are far more urgent fleet renewals on the agenda, notably that of the entire 737 fleet, of which 3 planes will be phased out as from next year already, with the hope they can be replaced by A319s (if the budget allows it)...

[Atlantis]

of which 3 planes will be phased out as from next year already, with the hope they can be replaced by A319s (if the budget allows it)...

Or the B737-700. Same number of pax, range but less cargo capacity.

[tolipanebas]

For a whole range of reasons, the preference of SN is said to be with the A319 though, but as so often there's the little detail of the lack of budget for it...

[sab319]

A319 would be more logical as a replacement due to it already being in the fleet and offering commonality with the A330 in the Brussels Airlines fleet aswell as the big Airbus fleets of Lufthans and Swiss...

[tolipanebas]

A319 would be more logical as a replacement due to it already being in the fleet and offering commonality with the A330 in the Brussels Airlines fleet aswell as the big Airbus fleets of Lufthans and Swiss...

Not to mention that SN has recently insourced all maintenance activities on the A319 and is planning on doing the same on 737 too. Adding yet another (sub)type to their fleet definitely isn't going to help them as it will make their maintenance operations even more complex...

Better try to harmonize the fleet on one type of medium haul plane for which you already have built up an inventory of spare parts as well as the technical know how, which you already operate and which is also widely used by the other airlines in the LH group, thus increasing your own crew utilisation and network flexibility as well as continue with the mixed fleet flying concept with the A330 fleet (which is hopefully also going to grow over time).

Not to mention that the A319 actually is a superior plane to the 737NG in all performance fields for basically no increased operational cost, so there's no clear advantage to the 737NG, hence the A319 being the preferred candidate.

Regardless how you look at it, the 737NG really needs more than just one miracle to make it into the SN fleet

[Crosswind]

I would not say the A319 is better than the B737NG... Even more, The Baby Boeing has better performances than the older Airbus...

Beside performances, You also have the operating cost, which change from one contract to another, depending on the trade between the airline and the manufacturer. Crew qualification, maintenance, spare equipment, sale cost...

The 737's are progressively removed from the european fleets, most probably for political reasons (and it's natural, Europe first ), but he's still, and for a long time, THE medium haul aircraft.

[euroflyer]

most probably for political reasons (and it's natural, Europe first ),

You do not really believe this, do you

LH for example might phase out the 737s, but they are the launch customer for the 747-8, for the Canadian Bombardier C-Jet, have been as far as I know for the Bombardier CRJ900, etcetera. Many other European airlines have ordered the 787, etcetera, etcetera ....

[NCB]

The 737's are progressively removed from the european fleets, most probably for political reasons (and it's natural, Europe first ), but he's still, and for a long time, THE medium haul aircraft.

That's debatable.
The B737-700 is lighter than the A319, it's cheaper to buy/lease, the -ER version can achieve alot of range.

The A319 has higher resale value, offers commonality with A330 and can carry more cargo and a bit more passengers.

Their operating efficiencies are about the same.

It's a fact that Airbus parts are easier to get in Europe. Airbus also has the special engineering department that can send specialised engineers within days, at lower cost.

At the end of the day, considering commonality with LH fleets, the A319/A320 would be the better choice for SN. For bigger orders (ie from LH), Airbus can easily match the price of the B737-700.

It's only after everything is weighted, that nationalism kicks in: we're talking about dozens of millions of euro. If one can choose between 2 equally good options, better keep money circling within the borders of Europe than to send it abroad.


My opinion is that SN should replace all Avro's with C-series (which seems to be the plan), but that the B737/A319 should also be replaced by the CS300's. The CS300ER has the range to fly Africa.
It wouldn't do harm if LH can rent some of its A319's to SN while waiting for the C-series, so that SN can get rid of their B737's.

[Crosswind]

I do fully agree with you, NCB...

[Malaysia]

I think that the B737/A319 needs to stay for sure, C3000S? No thanks.., And it's more cheaper because the educution that the pilots need to follow..

[NCB]

I think that the B737/A319 needs to stay for sure, C3000S? No thanks.., And it's more cheaper because the educution that the pilots need to follow..

Bombardier aims for the CS110 to be 20% more fuel efficient than the E-195.
At a utilisation of 10 hours (engine turning) a day (6 sectors a day), a CS300 could save 9000-10000 liters of fuel over an A319. The CS300 is up to 10 tons lighter than the A319, the GTF is 10% more fuel efficient than CFM-56/V2500.

That's maybe 7000€ a day of savings over the A319 or over 2.5 million euros per year per aircraft.

Education of pilots, maintenance staff, set-up of parts inventories... minor expenses compared to the huge savings a combined CS110/CS130 fleet could bring to SN. And we're not even talking about the 15M$ lower sale price of the CS300 compared to A319.

After all, let's not forget that we're comparing a 1995 aircraft derived from a 1988 aircraft to a 2015 aircraft...

[Malaysia]

Indeed,

But I think that they need to let a 50 procent AVRO and 50 procent CS100.
But that's my opnion but I think there wil be some problems with the CS100
And it looks very much like a A320/A319

[joyraider]

Perhaps a weird question that doesn't have much to do with this discussion at all, but I'm just wondering:

Am I the only one who thinks the A319 (well, the entire 320-family) is one of the butt-ugliest planes ever produced?

[Malaysia]

Soo? If it's fly it's good

[joyraider]

But honestly, if you compare this to a 737:



:wtf:

I'm not sure whether it's the big nose or the single axle landing gear, but I just find it.. ugh!

On that area Boeing knows how to make planes both functional & attractive at the same time, not just the 737 but for example the 747 and even the 777. All of them really..

[cathay belgium]

Hi,

I prefer Boeing instead of Airbus, but what's the matter,
the A320 family doesn't look good but their great,
the A330/340 is compared with A320 very good looking (prefer A330 instead B767!).

But aren't they (737/320) not all to big to replace an AVRO?
E170/190 or canadairs are big enough for SN medium/short flights aren't they?
( and they look good haha)

Pity that Fokker doesn't exist anymore, they would gave us an solution,
so (european) politics could have another answer to EADS.
( yes, I also know that our politicians would preferred some french instead of dutch planes,
so like in any another business ( banking,power,... ).

Is there in any case already a timing for the replacement,AVRO and 737's .
Maybe the management of SN can ask some help to JAF, if you see how quickly they renew their fleet
by new nice looking planes !!!

Will follow this discussion ... and in the meanwhile we still flying some old Avro's and old generation 737's,
( if we have to luck to fly with them ).

ciao,
CX-B

[cnc]

why would JAF/TUI help SN to get new planes ?
i like like how the A321 looks, much better then the B757 but yea it can't compete based on looks with a nice B738 or B739. Those boeing winglets do a lot imo

[cathay belgium]

cnc,
I did not said anything that JAF would help SN to get new planes,
I just meant that SN better could have a look to the management of JAF as you can see
how quick THEY get their new planes. ( already 3 this year /2 from B-factory and still some to go )!!

Off course I also know that you can't compare these companies with eachother,but it was just
meant on a funny way!

greetings, CX-B
( I prefer the 757 instead of A321, a 757 with winglets !! )