Video A310 TAP at airshow how low can you go ??

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FLY4HOURS.BE
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Post by FLY4HOURS.BE » 17 Sep 2007, 19:22

They have gone far beyond safety margins.

This must be forbidden.
The JAA should do something about this incident, people could have died!!
Notice the wingtip missing the ground in the left turn after the low-pass...
Even though the pilots had a visual estimation of distances, there might have been a tree or any obstacle that could have struck the wing.
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Atlantis
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Post by Atlantis » 17 Sep 2007, 19:58

FLY4HOURS.BE wrote: Notice the wingtip missing the ground in the left turn after the low-pass...
This is indeed crazy. How many meters? 4 or 5 meters.

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Post by haflinger » 17 Sep 2007, 20:30

FLY4HOURS.BE wrote:They have gone far beyond safety margins.

This must be forbidden.
The JAA should do something about this incident, people could have died!!
Notice the wingtip missing the ground in the left turn after the low-pass...
Even though the pilots had a visual estimation of distances, there might have been a tree or any obstacle that could have struck the wing.
Those guys are definitely skilled pilots. Breaking limits? Wich limits?
It's indeed low, but, no problem. What about airplanes going under the bridge in BUD for the now yearly red bull air race?

Concerning the topic thread, you can go as low as you want, the moment you touch, it's a touch and go :)

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Post by Flyuli » 17 Sep 2007, 20:32

it's such a bad image for TAP
Some pilots have already forgotten the crash of Habsheim, it's a pity to see that.

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Post by AirDupont » 17 Sep 2007, 20:36

If there are no pax on board I don't think there's any problem. Aircrafts are made to do these things

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Post by Gliderpilot » 17 Sep 2007, 20:43

If pilots have enough experience with that type of aircraft, no problem.

Take a look at this, especially at 00:47, how low can you go?

If the pilots are skilled, I can't see any problem...

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Post by Flyuli » 17 Sep 2007, 20:50

There is a difference between a glider and a A310..

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Post by Gliderpilot » 17 Sep 2007, 21:18

Yes, I know there is a difference. The glider is flying ten times as low, at half the speed? OK, there is also a difference in size...

I just wanted to make my point clear, you can go as low as you want, if you're skilled well enough...

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Post by Flyuli » 17 Sep 2007, 21:33

What is the purpose of such a demonstration?
Would the low-pass be less beautiful 50 metres higher?

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Post by SilverJET » 17 Sep 2007, 22:19

Why the fuzz about this demonstration? It shows the very skilled A310 pilots of TAP who can handle all extreme behaviours of their jet and of course the very good design of this "old" bird. It's nice to see an A310 flying like a jetfighter :D Whish I was there.

I agree that there must be some safety regulations, so that this event can take place without any problems/crashes etc. But I do believe that all this was counted in.
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Post by TWA » 17 Sep 2007, 22:37

When the A313 started banking after the flypast, she was already far beyond the crowds...I wish I was there too.

At LIS this kind of action is not a rare sight and here it happens with pax onboard :http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nNEn730iSdM

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Post by Novastar » 18 Sep 2007, 00:21

that was an extreme situation with the bad weather... has nothing to do with this.

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Post by FLY4HOURS.BE » 18 Sep 2007, 03:27

Those guys are definitely skilled pilots. Breaking limits? Wich limits?
It's indeed low, but, no problem
No problem?
Do you need a crash to say that there was a problem? :shock:

They were lucky, not skilled.
A skilled and mentally healthy pilot would not risk his life and a 30 million dollar plane just to make a crowd and some photographers happy.

Acrobatics are approved at air shows as far as a back-up plans exist for every given situation and maneuver.
That is safety and responsability.
Otherwise any performance should not be okayed.

What would the pilots do in this situation if the wing had touched the ground?
May I remind you that airliners don't have ejection seats and that an enormous airliner when it crashes, causes way more damage on the ground than a small military fighter!

And airliners are not built to be flown like this.
The response of the controls and engines are way slower than any airshow performance jet and in the event of a required fast response, it would be fatal.

I just wanted to make my point clear, you can go as low as you want, if you're skilled well enough...
Overestimating yourself and doing what you are not doing everyday is one of the most dangerous behaviours for an aviator.
I don't think Airbus test-pilots were on the commands, but normal TAP flightcrew.
They are not used to doing this everyday and I m pretty sure they panicked for a brief moment because you can see them gaining altitude after that while maintaining the bank angle.

I hope they get punished hard.

Update: It was TAP's A310 chief pilot with 4000 hours commercial on type and no acrobatic experience on this type.

Pictures : http://forums.simflight.com/viewtopic.p ... &sk=t&sd=a

The pilot couldn't have estimated the distance to the ground at that angle + there is no wingtip reference on this A310 (no winglet) showing where the wingtip actually is compared to the ground.
The closest distance wingtip-ground is as big as the engine's diameter... not more than 5 meters...
No way a human being can estimate 5 meters on a lateral scale while flying at a speed of 320-340 km/h on the longitudinal scale.

Very stupid
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Post by 744rules » 18 Sep 2007, 11:29

Quite imprtessive, but completely insane and inresponsible
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Post by dre » 18 Sep 2007, 11:57

I have no doubt that the pilots are skilled.

But every pilot who flies commercially knows that not everything is 100 %predictable, all airline pilots experienced this small little wind gust before touching down, this little bit of turbulence when you just didnt expect it, this small downdraft that makes you touch down just a bit before you expected it....

In my opinion this low pass is just stretching the limits. Limits are not there to challenge them.

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Post by Bilboone » 18 Sep 2007, 19:12

AirDupont wrote:If there are no pax on board I don't think there's any problem. Aircrafts are made to do these things

Airliners like these are NOT made to do these things, they are designed and optimizied to fly at high altitude at a certain cruise speed, Avionics and some systems like fly controls and hydraulics are not designed for these manouvres like the excess banking , also engines like on the A310 don't have the same performance like they have at higher altitude , remember the A320 on a airshow flying in the trees??



Those guys are definitely skilled pilots. Breaking limits? Wich limits?
It's indeed low, but, no problem. What about airplanes going under the bridge in BUD for the now yearly red bull air race?

Concerning the topic thread, you can go as low as you want, the moment you touch, it's a touch and go
This has nothing to do with skills, only with safety limits at airshows, never heard of minimum height and distance to the public ? A airline like TAP should know better. If you want to do something like this , i should advice to use flight simulator.

P.S. the moment you touch like this way it's not called a touch and go but a major crash...
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Post by Fabke » 18 Sep 2007, 22:42

I can't believe this :evil: are these guys crazy??? Don't they mind about their live and the ones of the spectators , I like airshows and a lot of action too but this is really dangerous and unacceptable , if there only should have gone something wrong causing the plane to crash , their could have been a lot of victims and don't forget that a lot of upcoming airshows which have strict safety measures could be cancelled :evil:

It's already not easy nowadays to organise a show as it costs millions to get an insurance and then you see things like this happen at a show :roll: :roll: :roll:
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Post by fcw » 18 Sep 2007, 23:18

Flying over the runway at 10 ft is what thousands of planes do every day, a second before they land!
The turn looks indeed pretty spectacular, but this could be caused by optical illusion.
Overall this looks very similar to what you can see every year at Le Bourget or Farbborough...

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Post by FLY4HOURS.BE » 19 Sep 2007, 00:32

http://forums.simflight.com/viewtopic.p ... &sk=t&sd=a

Take a look at the pictures. There is no illusion.
The proximity is true and was only about 4 meters at the closest moments. (Which you can compare to the engine cowling's diameter, a good reference seen the flat angle from the camera)

Le Bourget & Farnborough are far more boring than what you see at Koksijde and Sanicole airshows as they are "business presentations".
But they have strict safety rules there and you won't ever see a commercial airplane maneuvering at these heights above the ground.

Flying over the runway at 10ft is not what airplanes do every day.
In fact they flare at 10ft and land or they go around.
But these are critical moments where the speeds are the lowest and the aircraft in the control unstable regime.
Ok we hear the engine being spooled as the aircraft flies past the crowd.
But still, banking that plane in landing configuration so hard will cause the stall speed to rise sharply and the controls to become very unresponsive while nearing the stall.
You don't want a bird-strike or a little turbulence at that moment (wind calm+hot weather=turbulence!!)


They were lucky.
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