Question about KLM flight 1734 BRU-AMS

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chrisflyer
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Question about KLM flight 1734 BRU-AMS

Post by chrisflyer » 01 Sep 2006, 23:39

Dear all,

I have a quick question relating to the following:

KLM has a daily flight (KL1734) departing BRU at 21.45, arriving AMS at 22.45. Given that there are almost no same-day connecting flights at AMS after 11pm, except for the occasional BON-GYE-UIO, I was wondering who uses that late BRU-AMS flight? Is there enough local traffic, do people connect out of AMS the next morning, or does the single onward flight to Bonaire-Guayaquil-Quito justify a late flight inbound from BRU? Any info would be appreciated.

Cheers,

Chrisflyer

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Sabena_690
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Post by Sabena_690 » 02 Sep 2006, 11:58

As you say, the KL1734 probably doesn't have a lot of potential for interesting feeder traffic (except for the flight to BON/UIO/GYE, leaving somewhere around 23:30).

However, the KL1733 arriving in BRU at 21:20 has a lot of potential, as this flight is the only possibility for connecting passengers arriving from ICN/MNL/BON/... and the inbound wave from European flights around 18:00-19:00 in AMS.

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Frederic
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Established02
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Post by Established02 » 02 Sep 2006, 12:42

I think Sabena 690 is correct in indicating that KL1733 is probably a critical flight for KLM in terms of schedule and revenue.

Furthermore, operating KL1734 with possibly poor loads is likely to be a better alternative than nightstopping the aircraft in BRU. By pulling the aircraft back to AMS late in the evening KLM can obviously avoid expensive costs at BRU (parking fees, hotel accommodation for the crew, etc...) and use the nightly hours to perform maintenance on the aircraft. There is probably no point anyway in having a very early morning departure out of BRU. All connecting traffic can depart from BRU with KL1728 at 07:55 already.

> Is there enough local traffic,

I assume there is hardly any O & D traffic between BRU and AMS

Despite of the often difficult situation on the roads, I guess people will just keep using their car or catch the train.

> do people connect out of AMS the next morning

I doubt people would leave BRU late in the evening, spend the night in an airport hotel or the transit zone and catch a connecting flight the next morning.

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Sabena_690
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Post by Sabena_690 » 02 Sep 2006, 13:34

Established02 wrote:Furthermore, operating KL1734 with possibly poor loads is likely to be a better alternative than nightstopping the aircraft in BRU.
Exactly, when KL increased their frequency on AMS-BRU to 6x daily, the nightstopping aircraft was replaced by the KL1734 (flying back in the late evening, you can see it as some kind of "positioning flight") and an early morning AMS-BRU. Thanks to the "Ryanairesque" turnarounds (only 25 minutes at BRU), KL manages to offer a BRU-AMS at 7:55 without an expensive nightstop, which is quite an achievement!

Of course this is only possible on very short sectors like BRU-AMS. Anyway, well spotted by the KL planners! Measures like this help to improve reliability of those loss-making feeder flights.

Regards
Frederic
Brussels Airlines - Flying Your Way

chrisflyer
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Post by chrisflyer » 02 Sep 2006, 14:15

Thanks for that valuable insight, guys. Seems like a reasonable tactic on the side of KLM.

Happy landings,

Chrisflyer

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A318
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Post by A318 » 03 Sep 2006, 21:26

Due to the fact that KLM is also involved in the HSL (High Speed Train) connection between Amsterdam-Brussels-Paris these kind of flights will be cancelled as soon the train will operate.
All pax arriving in AMS and connecting to Brussels or Paris will go by the HSL. They hope it will start running in 2007.
More information in English about the whole project can be found at http://www.hslzuid.nl/hsl/uk/hslzuid/

Greetz,

Erwin
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Post by jan_olieslagers » 04 Sep 2006, 07:23

A318 wrote:Due to the fact that KLM is also involved in the HSL (High Speed Train) connection between Amsterdam-Brussels-Paris these kind of flights will be cancelled as soon the train will operate.
All pax arriving in AMS and connecting to Brussels or Paris will go by the HSL. They hope it will start running in 2007.
More information in English about the whole project can be found at http://www.hslzuid.nl/hsl/uk/hslzuid/
Thanks for info. Try to avoid confusion between HSL and HST.
The one is the rails, and these are managed by the state. (Today yet, but for how long?) The other is the train, and that's where KLM gets involved.

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Post by SN30952 » 04 Sep 2006, 08:41

Inderdaad (Indeed):
Brussel (Brussels) naar Amsterdam (Schiphol)
KL 1734 Vertrektijd 21.45 Ma 11 Sep 2006 Aankomsttijd 22.45 Ma 11 Sep 2006
and Amsterdam (Schiphol) naar Brussel (Brussels)
KL 1727 Vertrektijd 06.35 Ma 18 Sep 2006 Aankomsttijd 07.30 Ma 18 Sep 2006
are sold at the lowest fare possible
jan_olieslagers wrote: Try to avoid confusion between HSL and HST.
The one is the rails, and these are managed by the state. (Today yet, but for how long?) The other is the train, and that's where KLM gets involved.
Yes do avoid that, and try HSA

The new HSL track is 125 km long. 85 km of the route consists of newly laid high-speed track, a special type of rails that allow for speeds above 160 km/hour.
The Line
- Amsterdam - Schiphol: 17 km
- Schiphol - Hoofddorp: 5 km
- Hoofddorp - start high-speed track: 2 km
- start high-speed track - end high-speed track: 42 km
- end high-speed track - Rotterdam CS: 4 km
- Rotterdam CS - Rotterdam Lombardijen: 7 km
- Rotterdam Lombardijen - start high-speed track: 5 km
- high-speed track - Belgian border: 43 km

That's indeed only 42 + 43km.
There will be no need to ask the passengers to sit down, if they will to travel 160 km/hour, the accelerations will take care of that....

I changed kilometres into km, from the original text it saves 1MB!

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sn26567
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Post by sn26567 » 04 Sep 2006, 09:40

SN30952 wrote: - high-speed track - Belgian border: 43 km

That's indeed only 42 + 43km.
You forget the trach between the border and Antserp, some 30-40 km...
André
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SN30952
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Post by SN30952 » 04 Sep 2006, 10:41

sn26567 wrote:
SN30952 wrote: - high-speed track - Belgian border: 43 km
That's indeed only 42 + 43km.
You forget the trach between the border and Antserp, some 30-40 km...
Does that belong to the Dutch too?

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Bottie
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Post by Bottie » 04 Sep 2006, 11:03

Strange ... When I was talking about the HSA (thalys-rijdt-niet-meer-naar-cdg-t18233.html) I received some PMs to tell me to stop to talk about things that are not correct ... seems I was correct after all ;) ;)

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sn26567
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Post by sn26567 » 04 Sep 2006, 13:09

SN30952 wrote:
sn26567 wrote:You forget the trach between the border and Antserp, some 30-40 km...
Does that belong to the Dutch too?
No, but the Dutch paid most of it. They asked for a longer route through Belgium to avoid environmentally sensitive areas in Holland.
André
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KLMCityhopper
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KLM Brussels Flight

Post by KLMCityhopper » 04 Sep 2006, 14:37

Hey all,
All of you are thinking of all these complicated possibilities with transfers. The truth I think is a lot simpler. Firstly, traffic between Brussels and Amsterdam is often not transfer traffic. I assume that Air France handles this, because those flights to Paris are more frequent. Secondly, time is money, and as other routes depend on transfer passengers, those routes get priority at daytime. The Brussels flight is so short, that an aircraft can still operate the route after its busy schedule is over. Anyways, the aircraft they use is a Fokker 50 or occasionally a fokker 70, and because the route is so short, the route is so cheap that KLM would not earn much with a 737, as that same aircraft could fly to for example Milan, and have a much higher revenue basis!

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Thalys Replacing Flight Possibly

Post by KLMCityhopper » 04 Sep 2006, 14:39

Hey guys,
I forgot to mention that because of the Thalys-KLM alliance, it is very likely that this line will replace the flight once the trains start travelling at their usual speed. The same thing has happened on the Antwerp-Amsterdam line, and because of the limited demand on the Brussels flight, this seems to me to be the most likely choice.

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A318
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Re: Thalys Replacing Flight Possibly

Post by A318 » 04 Sep 2006, 22:48

KLMCityhopper wrote:Hey guys,
I forgot to mention that because of the Thalys-KLM alliance, it is very likely that this line will replace the flight once the trains start travelling at their usual speed. The same thing has happened on the Antwerp-Amsterdam line, and because of the limited demand on the Brussels flight, this seems to me to be the most likely choice.
I can see you are a very good reader:
A318 wrote:Due to the fact that KLM is also involved in the HSL (High Speed Train) connection between Amsterdam-Brussels-Paris these kind of flights will be cancelled as soon the train will operate.
Greetz,

Erwin
A Whole Different Animal

SN30952
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Post by SN30952 » 05 Sep 2006, 04:07

sn26567 wrote:
SN30952 wrote:
sn26567 wrote:You forget the trach between the border and Antserp, some 30-40 km...
Does that belong to the Dutch too?
No, but the Dutch paid most of it. They asked for a longer route through Belgium to avoid environmentally sensitive areas in Holland.
In fact, did they use that tactic to acquire bigger control on the line, even over the Dutch border?
And do you see the project with the new airport at sea, linked up to this high speed line?
These infrastructure works are planed decennia in advance, aren't they?

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earthman
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Post by earthman » 05 Sep 2006, 12:13

I must say, while the Dutch part of the HSL looks quite nice, the part between the border and Antwerp must be one of the ugliest things I've ever seen.

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Bottie
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Post by Bottie » 05 Sep 2006, 12:52

earthman wrote:I must say, while the Dutch part of the HSL looks quite nice, the part between the border and Antwerp must be one of the ugliest things I've ever seen.

as long as they don't forget to put power on the line (they did that in the testingphase) it's ok ;)

But like you say, the part between antwerp and the border is :roll: :roll:

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