Zaventem wasn't that parochial 40 years ago....

[SN30952]

We all saw the Belgian PM welcoming the Hainan maiden flight to Zaventem.
Be remembered that one of his ministers also from the same party was the Sabena hearse driver.

Indeed 40 years ago Zaventem saw more exotic arrivals and departures than now: weekly and scheduled flights then were to BOM, BKK, SIN, KUL, JKT, MNL, TYO....
To SCL, EZE, MVD
To JNB, JRO, DAR, ADD, KRT
To JED, AUH, DOH, RUH
To YUL, ANC, MEX, GUA, NAS.
To THR, BGW
And many more in Europe....
And I am probably forgetting some...

And not only with Sabena. Because most of these flights were operated in bi-lateral configuration. When SN flew, its counterpart often flew the relation too.
But also direct flights were attracted because Zaventem gave therefor unexpected connections. Zaventem was number one for 'all' Africa. Paris only for French-speaking Africa, London for English-Africa.
I remember ASU, SAO, MFM too.

The hearse driver hit the arrivals and departure board heavily. He will never be forgiven....
Now his boss has to welcome them .... one by one.
Would they have spent time and money for each of the Sabena destinations, as they spend now for each 'new' destination, the picture would not be that of the 'parochial hit by a blue hearse....'
But it seems more pleasant to 'work' for foreigners than for your own people isn't it?
Forget the 'blue sky idea', it was a blue hearse!

[jan_olieslagers]

Could you please specify which of these exotic destinations had Brussels services from a home airline? None of the Latin-American destinations, I think. Neither any from Eastern Asia. Neither Air-India nor Pakistan International. Not too much from the Middle or Near East. MEA, perhaps, at one time. El Al, yes, then just as now.

I remember spotting at Zaventem in the late '60s and early '70s, it was much less attractive than today. I should reckon 50-80% of traffic was Sabena, quite uninteresting because all seen before. The nice thing was one could spot from the roof terraces on the piers, these were closed to the public after terrorists started to attack civil aviation. The most exciting thing to do was to complete one's list of DC9's from KLM & SAS, B737 from Lufthansa & Olympic, &c &c. Boring, no?

Your message brings nice nostalgia but not much correct facts. Then again, we should remember times were different. Back in that era, Belgian government thought it quite normal to pump loads of tax money into the national airline, for reasons of prestige and of public service. And like many 19th century ideas, this mentality died a bit harder in Belgium than in most places.
But I am quite convinced that many of these Sabena long-haul flights had deplorably low load factors by today's standards.

Finally, allow me once again to complain about your use of coding without explanation. Is it really that much harder to write Nairobi iso NBO, JNB for Johannesburg &C? Or do you really need to demonstrate your knowledge of this codification?

[SN30952]

Is it really that much harder to write Nairobi iso NBO, JNB for Johannesburg &C? Or do you really need to demonstrate your knowledge of this codification?

Nairobi iso NBO, JNB for Johannesburg &C?
iso? is that not an abbrev?
and &C?
And waypt?

btw, after a while you will know them too. It is good against Alzheimer... (btw his first name was Alois, and he studied @ Aschaffenburg university. I hope I never forget than one!)
Meanwhile here is also a 'history-wise' useful tool

NBO - Nairobi, Kenya Jomo Kenyatta Internatonal
JNB - Johannesburg, South Africa Jan Smuts
Mind you, this was the old name on the front of imho ugly airport building

To get correct and updated info on airport codes, one can use Amadeus' Timetable section
This system allows you to use full names or codes of your O/D (origin/destination). Users will also notice the different airports in a particular location.
The Location Lookup facility gives you ample possibilities to verify codes.

PS.
I really do not need to demonstrate my knowledge of this codification, people know I know.
More, can you imagine aviation without coding?

And now here is the RR (Rolls Royce) of airport coding 4 hobbyists: goto Great Circle Mapper. We introduced this tool long time ago on LZ. But for the newbies, here you go: scroll down to the bottom of the page, to Locations may be specified using FAA, IATA, or ICAO airport codes add test with LONDON.
Enjoy!

You might as well test it with QHA or ZOT if you do not know how to write Het Zoute, or when you have as information walvis baai or rooykop.
Have fun with it.

Luckily Firefox has a good "Bladwijzers", Favorites, Bill calls them, because reminding website addresses is more difficult than codes at my age....

[744rules]

None of the Latin-American destinations, I think.

VP and PZ come to mind.


Decoded these are VASP and Air Paraguay

[Robin_Bamps]

These and others were regular visitors in the 1970's and 1980's :

AIR INDIA 7O7
AIR CONGO/AIR ZAIRE DC8/747/DC1O
SAA 747SP
NIGERIA AIRWAYS 7O7
CARIBBEAN INTL DC8/DC1O/747/7O7
BAHAMAS AIR 7O7
LAP DC8/7O7
CUBANA IL62/DC1O
UGANDA AIRWAYS 7O7
IRAQI AIR 727
AIR CANADA DC8
PANAM DC8/7O7/747/737
AIR FLORIDA DC1O
CAPITOL AIRWAYS DC8/DC1O
AIR BERLIN USA 7O7
NATIONAL DC8
TOWER AIR 747
METRO AIR 747
PEOPLE EXPRESS 747
BRANIFF DC8/747
HAWAIIAN DC8
NATIONAIR DC8
MEA 72O/COMET/CV99O
LIA CV99O
GARUDA DC1O/747
MAS 747/DC1O
SCIBE ZAIRE 7O7/DC1O

Credit: Paul Sanders

Regards, Robin Bamps.

[SN30952]

Not too much from the Middle or Near East. MEA, perhaps, at one time. El Al, yes, then just as now.

There was Syrian Arab, Lybian, help me coding that, 744rules
Great and quick support, Robin. How ru?

Reminds me, in the early '70 our Sabena office in BKK was next to IRAQI AIR's. Nice guys. Would they still be around? The other neigbour was LH.

[jan_olieslagers]

These and others were regular visitors in the 1970's and 1980's :
( ... )

Thank you! Some of these I seem to remember, plus a couple more like Pan-Am B727 and Spantax CV990. But that wasn't really the point. The argument was about scheduled services by Sabena to much more destinations than today (and I fully agreed to that, and did comment on the possible reasons behind) AND reciprocal scheduled services by foreign airlines. I did and do question that. Indeed I believe most of the (more or less) regular visitors you mentioned were on ad hoc flights rather than scheduled. Indeed I think there were at that time as many ad hoc flights as today, but scheduled traffic has much gone up since. So that in those golden years, ad hoc flights were a much more important part of traffic than they are today. I clearly remember the only noteworthy flights at regional airports like EBAW or EBOS were ad-hoc charters, or seasonal tourist services at best.

Of the airlines you mention, following must have had scheduled services at one time or another:
AIR CONGO/AIR ZAIRE DC8/747/DC1O
AIR CANADA DC8 (saw these more than once)
PANAM DC8/7O7/747/737
MEA 72O/COMET/CV99O (when did they cease Comet operations?)

The others can only have been ad hoc, I believe:
AIR INDIA 7O7
SAA 747SP
NIGERIA AIRWAYS 7O7
CARIBBEAN INTL DC8/DC1O/747/7O7
BAHAMAS AIR 7O7
LAP DC8/7O7
UGANDA AIRWAYS 7O7
IRAQI AIR 727
AIR FLORIDA DC1O
CAPITOL AIRWAYS DC8/DC1O
AIR BERLIN USA 7O7
NATIONAL DC8
TOWER AIR 747
METRO AIR 747
PEOPLE EXPRESS 747
BRANIFF DC8/747
HAWAIIAN DC8
NATIONAIR DC8
MAS 747/DC1O
SCIBE ZAIRE 7O7/DC1O

Bit of questions:
GARUDA DC1O/747 surely these were diversions from Amsterdam EHAM ?
CUBANA IL62/DC1O idem but then Luxembourg ELLX?
LIA CV99O What airline was/is this?

Regards,

[SN30952]

....The argument was about scheduled services by Sabena to much more destinations than today (and I fully agreed to that, and did comment on the possible reasons behind) AND reciprocal scheduled services by foreign airlines. I did and do question that. Regards,

You are right with that, jan_olieslagers.
That was the Achilles heel of Sabena.
At other airport, the bases of the competitors, the 'other' airlines reciprocated.
imho the reason was that the airport and aeronautical authorities, strongly supported their 'national' carrier, which was not the case in Zaventem.

Was there more reason why airlines reciprocated in Schiphol? In Milan?
We cannot talk belgian politics in these lines, but a list of Transport ministers would talk... Belgium had Misnisters of Transport that were more busy whit Agusta helicopters than with their job... I have Spit it out, now.

[Robin_Bamps]

Thanks all.

Paul read your replies and mailed me again with some info.

He says it really were scheduled services and no ad hoc flights. Also Garuda
and Cubana were no diversions he says (and, I know myself, Cubana had (again?)
scheduled IL-62 services to BRU in the 1990's).

LIA = Lebanese International Airways : they flew on Sundays with OD-AEW
and OD-AEX, until Israel bombed (yes, already back then) Beirut and destroyed
both CV990's back in 1968 (http://aviation-safety.net/database/ope ... p?var=5804).

Regards, Robin Bamps.

[jan_olieslagers]

Thanks all.
Paul read your replies and mailed me again with some info.
He says it really were scheduled services and no ad hoc flights. Also Garuda
and Cubana were no diversions he says (and, I know myself, Cubana had (again?)
scheduled IL-62 services to BRU in the 1990's).

LIA = Lebanese International Airways : they flew on Sundays with OD-AEW
and OD-AEX, until Israel bombed (yes, already back then) Beirut and destroyed
both CV990's back in 1968 (http://aviation-safety.net/database/ope ... p?var=5804).

Regards, Robin Bamps.

Much gratitude to Paul and yourself. Once again I have learned a little bit of history! Only it would seem I was not very lucky with my early spotting efforts.

[Ozzie1969]

I wonder how many A380s you could fill up with all the billions of francs the Belgian taxpayers have had to fork out over the decades to keep the pampered Sabena-bigheads flying to all these exotic destinations without any consideration for the economic viability of it all...

Sabena should have been killed off decades earlier. I'm glad they're gone. Good riddens to bad rubbish.

[SN30952]

all the billions of francs the Belgian taxpayers have had to fork out over the decades

Maybe the price of a couple of widebodies?
Meanwhile the airline you cherish so much, paid taxes and its 30.000+ staff contributed with income tax and social security in a multiple of billions to the Belgian social system. The company was also a big buyer of Belgian products, and if Belgian chocolates were known all over the world, it is thanks to Sabena. Would there not have been Sabena the Japanese would have been eating 'dropjes'.

While other airlines got national support, our national had to go on its belly to beg for financial aid, if it were an opera for the elite or a national circus for the freak.

If the authorities had done their share, Sabena did its!, Sabena and Zaventem would have been huge... believe me.

Note: How can we get rid of insults, the kind you're posting?

[Kapitein]

Cubana were no diversions he says (and, I know myself, Cubana had (again?)
scheduled IL-62 services to BRU in the 1990's).

And later on DC-10's leased from AOM

[sn26567]

PANAM DC8/7O7/747/737

...and 727 (on BRU-FRA)/310 (on BRU-JFK)

All the other airlines you mention did indeed have scheduled service, e.g. Branniff to DFW (daily) and SFO (weekly), Air Miami to ... Miami (weekly), Cubana to ... Cuba (weekly), etc.

They are all vivid in my memory. I thus remember a visitor from San Francisco that came to see me with a $49 ticket (one way) on Branniff!

[sn26567]

I wonder how many A380s you could fill up with all the billions of francs the Belgian taxpayers have had to fork out over the decades to keep the pampered Sabena-bigheads flying to all these exotic destinations without any consideration for the economic viability of it all...

Sabena should have been killed off decades earlier. I'm glad they're gone. Good riddens to bad rubbish.

I recognise the nice style of Ozzie. But if the Belgian government had done its job correctly and put the right people at the helm of Sabena, the National Airport would be the size of Schiphol and Sabena the size of the now defunct independent KLM.

Now, the same government must thrive with expensive diplomatic missions abroad to bring back foreign airlines, one by one, to Brussels in order to put it on the world aviation map.

What a loss of time and energy, when the tools would have been at hand if some minister ( the one mentioned by Fons) had not let things go astray.

SN Brussels Airlines, even merged with Virgin Express, might be a last hope to keep an independent Belgian airline, but it will never reach the size of Sabena in decades from now. The stupidity of some of our leaders has taken its toll, but the responsible persons are still there, alive, unharmed and kicking (and even making children with deputies from the adverse party....).

[SN30952]

and even making children with deputies from the adverse party.....

I have even an interesting information, that some deputies travelled on a parlementarian mission to ... Taiwan, euh together. That was also on taxpayers money. More details available about the results of that mission.... as there are: time lines

[jan_olieslagers]

The stupidity of some of our leaders has taken its toll, but the responsible persons are still there, alive, unharmed and kicking (and even making children with deputies from the adverse party....).

With all respect, Mr forum administrator, but could this not be considered a political statement? Even so, I must allow I fully agree to it...!

[jan_olieslagers]

SN Brussels Airlines ( ... ) will never reach the size of Sabena in decades from now.

Agreed! But as I stated before, I always believed the old Sabena to be overblown* (surgonflé ...) , operating non-profitable routes for reasons of national prestige and public service, at a huge cost to the taxpayer. A little "back to reality" scale-down is a healthy exercise!

*for one example, I believe their acquisition of B747's could never be economically justified, except perhaps perhaps for the Kinshasa service.

[SN30952]

The stupidity of some of our leaders has taken its toll, but the responsible persons are still there, alive, unharmed and kicking (and even making children with deputies from the adverse party....).

With all respect, Mr forum administrator, but could this not be considered a political statement? Even so, I must allow I fully agree to it...!

We are not in need of some Politically Correct (PC) Terms. are we?
A Cowboy - bovine control officer
A Crook - morally (ethically) challenged
Bald - follicularly challenged.
Bald - comb-free

A bald crook cowboy: a comb-free follicularly morally (ethically) challenged bovine control officer.

Political correctness (also politically correct, P.C. or PC) is a term used to describe language that appears calculated to provide a minimum of offense, particularly to the racial, cultural, or other identity groups being described.

btw in PC, Pregnant = parasitically oppressed.

[SN30952]

An other flight comes to my mind, was it a TWA that flew to Ohio, something as CMH Columbus.
What I remember when we arrived with the inaugural flight that when leaving that airport, there was a sign BRUSSELS +- 100 >.
Also we visted a huge brewery...
Or was that St Louis?